D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Hussar]

Right. But that's not what I'd want magic item prices for. I'm looking for prices to be balanced between magic items, like how feats balance with each other even though they might strengthen PCs against the monsters.

Thing is though, the feats are not just balanced against each other (if they are even that - see the comparison between Actor and Sharpshooter), but, they are balanced against existing monsters. The feats do not significantly affect things like bounded accuracy for example.

There are no feats that give flat out attack bonuses or AC bonuses. Why not? What happened to Weapon Focus, a feat that existed in 3e and 4e? Well, a +1 hit bonus in a system where characters max out at about +12 attack bonus over 20 levels, is a HUGE bonus. Going from a +6 to a +7 attack bonus for a 5th level character (for example) is effectively the same as gaining three or four levels, since the only way to get attack bonus is to either bump stat (which maxes out at +5) or gain proficiency bonus.

And, it makes an enormous difference. A character with a +12 attack bonus (which is about as good as it gets, maybe +14 with ranged weapons) automatically (well 95%) hits anything with a 14 AC or less. Which is a pretty good chunk of the MM, but, a PC with a +14 (after buying a +2 weapon) now 95% hits 16 AC or less, which is about 90% of the MM. The difference is enormous. And in a bounded accuracy system, the d20 roll is supposed to matter.

What I don't want to see in the game is making the d20 not matter anymore.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Thing is this thread has gone on for 41 pages and anyone still contributing to it needs to have their head examined. If there's a god in heaven this will get locked soon.

 

[Satyrn]

Thing is this thread has gone on for 41 pages and anyone still contributing to it needs to have their head examined. If there's a god in heaven this will get locked soon.

Hey, I only just got into it. And all I've really done is say "I'd like a list" and make a joke to correct a mistake by Lanefan that someone else had already caught.

I think my head's mostly fine

 

[iserith]

Thing is this thread has gone on for 41 pages and anyone still contributing to it needs to have their head examined. If there's a god in heaven this will get locked soon.

The trick is to set your forum preferences to display the maximum amount of posts per page. A 22-page thread about nothing of any importance doesn't seem quite as bad by comparison.

 

[Satyrn]

The trick is to set your forum preferences to display the maximum amount of posts per page. A 22-page thread about nothing of any importance doesn't seem quite as bad by comparison.

This.

And if you can get more people to block you, your page count will be even lower.

 

[Sunseeker]

But, that's the thing. Does it stop there? Having a utility based price list affects virtually every aspect of the game. PC's get a lot more powerful under this system. Which means that every module needs to be reworked, every new monster, XP awards, etc.

No. It means nothing. You, like so many others are assuming that its inclusion in the book creates a mandate to include it at the table. It doesn't.

You can continue to profess that belief if you like, but I won't be responding to any second servings of it.

Or, do you actually think that people would be happy with one and done? Considering all the kvetching already about how D&D is too easy, and monsters are too easy and so on, do you really think a system that would make PC's more powerful would be easily added onto the game and that those who want that system are going to be perfectly content to then have to rewrite every single monster, module and whatnot going forward?

This is a straw man.

No, they aren't. They're going to continue to bitch that their play style is being ignored by designers and that the new rules MUST be included in all future products. Which then forces everyone else to follow that same play style.

No thanks.

Oh and look, there's where you knocked down your straw man.

How about we try argumentation this way: I make my arguments. You make your arguments. We each take a stab at the points the other makes in them. I don't need you​ to make my arguments for me.

 

[Maxperson]

Thing is this thread has gone on for 41 pages and anyone still contributing to it needs to have their head examined. If there's a god in heaven this will get locked soon.

Obviously people are still enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't come here. Hoping it will be locked is petty and childish.

 

[Nevvur]

Points 1 and 2 that you quoted are definitely weak, but Point 3 is kind of a "slippery slope" argument which isn't very strong either. I think it more likely that an official magic items list more than likely becomes like all the other variants in the DMG that DMs may or may not use which is to say it has an impact on the games that use them and none on the ones that don't.

Point taken, but in my defense, I'm suggesting that A might lead to B, not that A will lead to B. I'm not trying to invalidate others' gaming preferences. I just want to express concern about future editions possibly going a direction I strongly dislike. Of course, if magic item pricing were to become the new normal for a hypothetical 6e (i.e. the bottom of the slippery slope), it's my choice to continue playing 5e or hack 6e to suit my preferences.

By that same token, people complaining about the lack of official prices can make some choices of their own, and pretty much all of those choices are going to be more productive than complaining that WotC owes them something. That's been the basis for most of my participation in this thread. I don't fault people for wanting a thing, but I do challenge those calling WotC lazy for not catering to their playstyle.

I think you're probably right about the impact of a 5e price guide on existing tables. It certainly wouldn't affect mine, but then I have a strong grasp on game design and the confidence to stand by my decisions. I'm less confident in the ability of new players and DMs to see an optional price guide as anything other than the default. But again, that's me being paternalistic. Even so, it's the source of my aforementioned concerns, with the additional proviso that those new players will be a significant voice in future edition play tests.

 

[Hussar]

No. It means nothing. You, like so many others are assuming that its inclusion in the book creates a mandate to include it at the table. It doesn't.

/snip.

If it's included, won't those that want it use it? Otherwise, what's the point?

Which brings me right back to my point. Those that use it will have PC's that are considerably more powerful. Meaning that using this system will result in every other supplement being more difficult to use.

Can we agree on this so far?

Now, if those that use this can't use any other supplement, particularly modules, without doing a great deal of work, do you really think that those that use this won't then turn around and start agitating for modules and other supplements to follow their playstyle?

After all, we DO actually have price lists for magic items. Right there in the DMG. Every magic item has a price range. Now, [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] doesn't like those prices and wants a price list so that his players can use the DMG as a shopping guide to spend the money they accumulate without having to futz about with downtime. So, his table (and presumably other tables who want this) are going to have issues because the game itself does not presume any magic items, while his table (and other tables like his) do presume magic items.

So, again, do you really think that adding a system that necessitates a complete rewrite of the entire game on the DM's side from the ground up is a reasonable request?

 

[Lanefan]

There is a small highlight in the XgtE that tell that monster and pc are built to face each other without magic items.
I understand from it that monster stat and xp budget tables are designed assuming the absence of magic item.
Adding precision to magic item price won’t help giving better or more balanced fight since the game already ignore them.

You and several (or many?) others are making a very big assumption here that may or may not be correct: that magic is always going to be geared toward combat.

A Folding Boat isn't going to win me any fights but it's sure cool to have...and it'd be fun to know how much it'd cost to commission an artificer to build me one.

A sword that works as a compass so I always know which way north is, or that has a Create Food and Water ability once a day - yeah, no combat benefits there but I'll take 'em if they're going.

A Bag of Holding? Most useful item in the game, but only when I'm looting the bodies after the fighting's done. If you've got one to sell, what's it gonna cost me?

And so on...