D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Hussar]

But what is it to you?

If you're someone who will never try it, why worry about it?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Because this is a massive rewrite to the entire game. You'd need to rewrite every monster to take the new character power level into account. Every new module would need two stat blocks. So on and so forth.

You aren't just asking for a price list. Because just a price list would be rather useless. Sure, you get your new price list. Cool. But, now are you going to be content that if you use that price list, every other supplement, module, campaign setting, whatever, is no longer of any use to you? After all, our new Volo's Guide and the soon come Mordenkainens (sp?) are chock a block with monsters whose stat blocks do not take magic items into account.

So, you're telling me that you'd be perfectly fine with just the price list. No modifications whatsoever to any other product? Even if you are, there are far too many vocal people who would constantly bitch and complain about how their "playstyle" isn't being catered to and how dare any of us suggest that it shouldn't be.

No thank you. You HAVE an edition with magic item price lists which presumes fungible magic items. Adding this to 5e, strictly from a practical point of view is extremely complicated for very, very little gain.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Appreciate the reply Max.

If I have players that do that, they are making unfounded assumptions and that's on them.

I've had friends make that mistake regarding real world items more than once. They got to the store and were surprised. Sometimes it was cheaper and sometimes more expensive.

Whereas I'd be like, "They'll find out when they get there that making assumptions on pricing isn't going to work out this time."

That's entirely fair. If it's what you do and your players understand it, kudos.

If you're looking for some guidline to give you static generfal prices, you aren't going to ever have high quality, or even mediocre quality for that matter. If you aren't pricing items individually and modified by circumstance, it's going to be shoddy pricing.

Which is an argument I made one or two pages ago.

Every table is different, but I think the more likely reason why prices aren't in the book is that they realized that they could only provide a crappy general pricing structure, so they left it to the DMs to make better ones for their own tables.

I'll agree with this.

 

[Krachek]

There is a small highlight in the XgtE that tell that monster and pc are built to face each other without magic items.
I understand from it that monster stat and xp budget tables are designed assuming the absence of magic item.
Adding precision to magic item price won’t help giving better or more balanced fight since the game already ignore them.
You just know that pc with items are stronger than without them.

Adding more precision can at best give the illusion of having paying a just and faire price.
The concept of fair price is totally dependent of the setting and core assumption used by the Dm. A more precise price will help a dm once in a while, and mostly wont be noticed.

 

[Satyrn]

Adding precision to magic item price won’t help giving better or more balanced fight since the game already ignore them.

Right. But that's not what I'd want magic item prices for. I'm looking for prices to be balanced between magic items, like how feats balance with each other even though they might strengthen PCs against the monsters.

 

[iserith]

Elfcrusher summed up the opposition to pricing magic items in the thread, Stop Trying to Impose... While he aimed to make it a more generic position about playstyles, it was clearly inspired by this thread. His main points were:

I don't think the first 2 points are particularly strong arguments against the inclusion of an official, optional magic item price guide, but I strongly agree with the third. We opposed to the notion are pleased with the current treatment of magic items and express concern that pricing magic items will appreciably change the nature of the game, both now and into the future.

On deeper reflection, I think both proponents and opponents of magic item pricing have overstated their case, but that tends to happen in debate. Why the controversy? Because proponents are throwing shade at the developers and acting like entitled brats, while opponents like myself are being paternalistic twats.

Points 1 and 2 that you quoted are definitely weak, but Point 3 is kind of a "slippery slope" argument which isn't very strong either. I think it more likely that an official magic items list more than likely becomes like all the other variants in the DMG that DMs may or may not use which is to say it has an impact on the games that use them and none on the ones that don't.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

But otherwise, I don't get the big deal. Don't want it, don't include it. Applies to pretty much everything in every book in every game ever made.

But, that's the thing. Does it stop there? Having a utility based price list affects virtually every aspect of the game. PC's get a lot more powerful under this system. Which means that every module needs to be reworked, every new monster, XP awards, etc.

Or, do you actually think that people would be happy with one and done? Considering all the kvetching already about how D&D is too easy, and monsters are too easy and so on, do you really think a system that would make PC's more powerful would be easily added onto the game and that those who want that system are going to be perfectly content to then have to rewrite every single monster, module and whatnot going forward?

No, they aren't. They're going to continue to bitch that their play style is being ignored by designers and that the new rules MUST be included in all future products. Which then forces everyone else to follow that same play style.

No thanks.

 

[Hussar]

I'm starting to think we live in separate, alternate dimensions.

3e's magic item prices were in the DMG in my timeline.

Kinda sorta. Let's not forget that the pricing for magic item construction was in the 3e PHB. So, while the pricing the in DMG was there, there was still pricing guidelines in the PHB.

 

[Krachek]

Right. But that's not what I'd want magic item prices for. I'm looking for prices to be balanced between magic items, like how feats balance with each other even though they might strengthen PCs against the monsters.

The same way Actor and sharpshooter are balanced?
That’s a joke!

Better precision could only help when a DM give a gold amount to equip characters with open book, or free choice crafting. I wonder how much Dm currently allow it. And a Dm should not be surprised that player choose dragon slayer weapon in tyranny of dragons, and giant slayer weapon in a giant campaign. Precise price list won’t help in such situation.
Dm will have to adjust price or diasallow item, deying players from their fundamental rights.

Otherwise in a more typical gameplay shopping player will bargain to lower the price they found too high, and a smart seller will rise the price of undervalued item. No need for precise list for that.

 

[Hussar]

But more seriously, yeah, the PH did provide calculations for the costs of scrolls, potions and wands in the corresponding item creation feats - for the ones that were just about storing spells - but that was about it.

Really?

My 3.5 PHB (going by the srd, IDHMBIFOM) states:

Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.

Benefit
You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.

The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Looks like the pricing is right there in the PHB. In fact it caused a lot of confusion since items in the DMG sometimes didn't follow the pricing guidelines in the PHB.

 

[Satyrn]

Really?

My 3.5 PHB (going by the srd, IDHMBIFOM) states:

Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.

Benefit
You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.

The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Looks like the pricing is right there in the PHB. In fact it caused a lot of confusion since items in the DMG sometimes didn't follow the pricing guidelines in the PHB.

I don't understand what you see in that feat that contradicts what I said. It says making an item takes 1 day per 1000 gp, but it doesn't talk about how the price of an item is determined. It doesn't say anything about how much a +1 shield costs, for example.

Brew Potion, Craft Wand and Scfibe scroll give a calculation that gives the price. That's what I was talking about