D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[iserith]

I mostly skimmed the middle of this thread, but I'm not sure what the controversy is exactly. I base whether you can buy magic items on the campaign I'm running. In my current Planescape campaign, you can. In my last, shall we say, less fantastical campaign, you couldn't.

As for WotC producing an official price list, I say sure, why not? Everything in the rules are just tools the DM can use or not as he or she sees fit for a given campaign. I almost never use the same rules options from campaign to campaign. I pick the things that help foster the play experience I'm going for. If the various options for awarding XP and handling rests isn't giving you agita, then surely an official price list shouldn't.

 

[Sunseeker]

I mostly skimmed the middle of this thread, but I'm not sure what the controversy is exactly. I base whether you can buy magic items on the campaign I'm running. In my current Planescape campaign, you can. In my last, shall we say, less fantastical campaign, you couldn't.

As for WotC producing an official price list, I say sure, why not? Everything in the rules are just tools the DM can use or not as he or she sees fit for a given campaign. I almost never use the same rules options from campaign to campaign. I pick the things that help foster the play experience I'm going for. If the various options for awarding XP and handling rests isn't giving you agita, then surely an official price list shouldn't.

Of all the things we agree on, apparently it's this.

I don't get the hullabaloo either. If the book came with prices, heck, if the PHB came with all the magical items, with prices and even little notes saying "Hey players, you should reasonably expect to find these in whatever game you're playing in." All I have to do, as DM, is say: "None of that applies to this game, please disregard." If players make a fuss, they can leave or run the game themselves. As I'm sure we're all aware of, it's far easier to find players than DMs. If you DM for AL and are thereby required to use the RAW and don't like it well..stop DMing for AL? If you're a paid DM for AL, then it's your job and there's all parts of our jobs we don't like, if it's that big a deal: quit.

But otherwise, I don't get the big deal. Don't want it, don't include it. Applies to pretty much everything in every book in every game ever made.

 

[Kobold Boots]

How much does a few seconds cost?

Not much, but if you have players that use pricing as a precedent for future things you're not spending a few seconds thinking about the pricing. I can just hear one of my friends saying something like "this magic item cost me a year's taxation in wheat to Lord so and so" then "so this thing we're looking at can't be more than.. "

Meanwhile in my head I'd be like "holy crap, what did I just do to the economy?"

You can't come up with a high quality set of pricing guidelines in a few seconds if you have to take into account the rest of your setting's economy. You can come up with a price if you don't care about such things or you don't have players that think like many of mine have.

Every table different. Likely the reason why there isn't a set of pricing guidelines beyond rarity, and no lifestyle pricing aside from level of opulence.

Be well
KB

 

[iserith]

Of all the things we agree on, apparently it's this.

I don't get the hullabaloo either. If the book came with prices, heck, if the PHB came with all the magical items, with prices and even little notes saying "Hey players, you should reasonably expect to find these in whatever game you're playing in." All I have to do, as DM, is say: "None of that applies to this game, please disregard." If players make a fuss, they can leave or run the game themselves. As I'm sure we're all aware of, it's far easier to find players than DMs. If you DM for AL and are thereby required to use the RAW and don't like it well..stop DMing for AL? If you're a paid DM for AL, then it's your job and there's all parts of our jobs we don't like, if it's that big a deal: quit.

But otherwise, I don't get the big deal. Don't want it, don't include it. Applies to pretty much everything in every book in every game ever made.

On the hypothetical that AL somehow becomes required to buy and sell magic items: While I'm sure it's harder for some folks than others, it is comparatively way easier to find groups that do speak to one's preferences than it has ever been. I recall the days of putting an index card on the local gaming store's cork board. And we found plenty of people that way. Now with all the options on the internet including online games which, in my opinion, are arguably better in some ways than in-person games? C'mon. People can find like-minded groups with a modicum of effort anymore.

 

[Sunseeker]

On the hypothetical that AL somehow becomes required to buy and sell magic items: While I'm sure it's harder for some folks than others, it is comparatively way easier to find groups that do speak to one's preferences than it has ever been. I recall the days of putting an index card on the local gaming store's cork board. And we found plenty of people that way. Now with all the options on the internet including online games which, in my opinion, are arguably better in some ways than in-person games? C'mon. People can find like-minded groups with a modicum of effort anymore.

Right, I mean I know I make it hard on myself by insisting on playing IRL. I don't mind those limitations. But there are more players than ever, the game is more accepted than ever, so logically...there's more room to be a stickler for what you like!

 

[Maxperson]

Not much, but if you have players that use pricing as a precedent for future things you're not spending a few seconds thinking about the pricing.

If I have players that do that, they are making unfounded assumptions and that's on them.

I can just hear one of my friends saying something like "this magic item cost me a year's taxation in wheat to Lord so and so" then "so this thing we're looking at can't be more than.. "

I've had friends make that mistake regarding real world items more than once. They got to the store and were surprised. Sometimes it was cheaper and sometimes more expensive.

Meanwhile in my head I'd be like "holy crap, what did I just do to the economy?"

Whereas I'd be like, "They'll find out when they get there that making assumptions on pricing isn't going to work out this time."

You can't come up with a high quality set of pricing guidelines in a few seconds if you have to take into account the rest of your setting's economy. You can come up with a price if you don't care about such things or you don't have players that think like many of mine have.

If you're looking for some guidline to give you static generfal prices, you aren't going to ever have high quality, or even mediocre quality for that matter. If you aren't pricing items individually and modified by circumstance, it's going to be shoddy pricing.

Every table different. Likely the reason why there isn't a set of pricing guidelines beyond rarity, and no lifestyle pricing aside from level of opulence.

Every table is different, but I think the more likely reason why prices aren't in the book is that they realized that they could only provide a crappy general pricing structure, so they left it to the DMs to make better ones for their own tables.

 

[Guest 6801328]

How much does a few seconds cost?

Fewer than it takes to look it up in the DMG. Actually, not even the DMG...another book other than the DMG.

Yeah...think I'd rather improvise.

 

[Satyrn]

For some reason 3e moved the magic item lists out of the DMG and into the PH

I'm starting to think we live in separate, alternate dimensions.

3e's magic item prices were in the DMG in my timeline.

 

[Satyrn]

But more seriously, yeah, the PH did provide calculations for the costs of scrolls, potions and wands in the corresponding item creation feats - for the ones that were just about storing spells - but that was about it.

 

[Nevvur]

I mostly skimmed the middle of this thread, but I'm not sure what the controversy is exactly. I base whether you can buy magic items on the campaign I'm running. In my current Planescape campaign, you can. In my last, shall we say, less fantastical campaign, you couldn't.

As for WotC producing an official price list, I say sure, why not? Everything in the rules are just tools the DM can use or not as he or she sees fit for a given campaign. I almost never use the same rules options from campaign to campaign. I pick the things that help foster the play experience I'm going for. If the various options for awarding XP and handling rests isn't giving you agita, then surely an official price list shouldn't.

Elfcrusher summed up the opposition to pricing magic items in the thread, Stop Trying to Impose... While he aimed to make it a more generic position about playstyles, it was clearly inspired by this thread. His main points were:

1) It takes up page count. (Which is a problem both in the $/page ratio, and bloat in general.)
2) It takes up WotC development time.
3) Most significantly, it begins to normalize the option. We may start to see NPCs or plot elements or magic items designed around existence of the option, and what is optional/normal now may be core in future editions.

I don't think the first 2 points are particularly strong arguments against the inclusion of an official, optional magic item price guide, but I strongly agree with the third. We opposed to the notion are pleased with the current treatment of magic items and express concern that pricing magic items will appreciably change the nature of the game, both now and into the future.

On deeper reflection, I think both proponents and opponents of magic item pricing have overstated their case, but that tends to happen in debate. Why the controversy? Because proponents are throwing shade at the developers and acting like entitled brats, while opponents like myself are being paternalistic twats.