For one meaning of "story", I guess. It's probably not a triumph in the sense of story according to which the PCs are protagonists in a gripping fantasy drama.
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No More 15-Minute Adventuring Day: Campsites
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
- Start date
Most characters in gripping fantasy dramas don't have 15 minute workdays. They don't "go nova" then nap. They push on despite depleted resources.
When one guy is running low on _________ (fill in the blank), the party doesn't stop, they continue. Sometimes this may mean carrying their ally...figuratively and/or literally.
Sure. But that's not because the story will proceed regardless (I mean, perhaps within the context of the fiction it will, but at least I'm talking here from the point of view of the author and audience). It's because the protagonists will continue to engage the story.
If an RPG is to produce a good story, the party should only rest in a leisurely fashion when things have (temporarily) slowed down - I'm thinking Rivendell, for example - which won't be the case if the GM keeps pushing things forward regardless of what the players have their PCs do.
Which is not to say I necessarily agree with KM's suggestion in the OP. I don't have a strong view one way or the other, but am inclined to prefer an approach in which the players, rather than the GM, take the lead in setting the pace but nevertheless have reasons to proceed even when their PCs are mechanically at below-optimal levels.
And within the context of the campaign, it makes just as much sense.
Personally, there is a genuine thrill I get running a PC on the edge of survival, driving forward because I know that if we don't get to Earthwindandfiredale in time, irrevocably bad things will happen in the campaign world.
That seems pretty much like how I do it.
OTOH my campaigns tend more towards "massive battle then rest", anyway. I love that 4e generally works fine with that approach.
I also want to clarify - while we often had the 15 minute adventuring day back in our long running 3.5E campaign, we had a lot of very memorable encounters during that campaign, so I think the group (myself as DM, and 8 players at the time) was generally satisfied with how things went as we had enough plot, story, NPC interaction, etc in between the encounters that it didn't feel like a 15 minute adventuring day at the table.
Also, while we still have some 15 minute adventuring days in our 4E campaign, it's less common than before. Usually, the players will want to press on after a short rest so they at least have their encounter powers refreshed. So, the group will have a couple of encounters, take a short rest, do some exploring, interact with some NPCs, etc, and then maybe run into another encounter or two afterwards. I've also made use of "Boons" from the DMG2 where you can do something in game that allows a PC to refresh a daily power (i.e., in the second encounter, they defeat the orc sub-boss. So, not only do they get a milestone, but they can pick one daily that they can recharge.) That way, the players feel that they at least have one daily in reserve for that next encounter.
Additionally, back when I played 1E and 2E D&D, we weren't the types that used dungeon crawls a lot. Most of our adventures and encounters were outdoors and in the open. Hence, when the party got banged up, we'd set up camp and heal up until we were ready to go on again. So, it wasn't a matter of getting 20 rooms into a dungeon and then having to retreat back to town to rest and recover.
Also, while we still have some 15 minute adventuring days in our 4E campaign, it's less common than before. Usually, the players will want to press on after a short rest so they at least have their encounter powers refreshed. So, the group will have a couple of encounters, take a short rest, do some exploring, interact with some NPCs, etc, and then maybe run into another encounter or two afterwards. I've also made use of "Boons" from the DMG2 where you can do something in game that allows a PC to refresh a daily power (i.e., in the second encounter, they defeat the orc sub-boss. So, not only do they get a milestone, but they can pick one daily that they can recharge.) That way, the players feel that they at least have one daily in reserve for that next encounter.
Additionally, back when I played 1E and 2E D&D, we weren't the types that used dungeon crawls a lot. Most of our adventures and encounters were outdoors and in the open. Hence, when the party got banged up, we'd set up camp and heal up until we were ready to go on again. So, it wasn't a matter of getting 20 rooms into a dungeon and then having to retreat back to town to rest and recover.
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prosfilaes
Adventurer
If we're talking realism, it takes at least 15 years for a new crop of orcs grow back. The response to a powerful group of adventurers taking a rest in an intelligent monster's area should as often be retreat as attack.
How many battles do most characters in fantasy stories really have in a day? I'm hard pressed to remember many fantasy characters who engage in more than 3 battles in a day. When Frodo fought Shelob, it was his first and last battle of the day, wasn't it?
I'm sure that in many gripping fantasy dramas, sometimes the characters do rest, for as long as hours or days at a time -- the story of those rest periods may simply be told quickly or glossed over, like the eating of meals and taking restroom breaks.
I agree that the 15 minutes resting day is definitely the result of a static artificial dungeon environment.
If monsters sit artificially in rooms for days or week or months waiting for heroes to come out of the blue, then why can't PCs likewise rest as long as they need to?
Compare to more dynamic and realistic environments -- saving the kidnapped princess before her captor gallops too far out of reach, preventing your friend from being executed at dawn, storming a castle, escaping a prison after breaking out of your cell, crossing the desert before you run out of water -- there is no resting during these scenarios without a risk analysis. If there's no pressure and no deadline, it's perfectly natural to rest as needed.
Technically, you don't need a real deadline or definite pressure to keep going -- you only need to worry or presume that there is one, enough to spur you to action as long as possible.
I think that adding official one-time resting areas in a dungeon is adding another artificial element to patch a problem created by the artificiality of the original environment.
Also, it encourages to players to think about the metagame framework rather in-game cause and effect. Which is fine if you don't mind that, but it would make a lot of other people unhappy who are looking for a more immersive game.
If monsters sit artificially in rooms for days or week or months waiting for heroes to come out of the blue, then why can't PCs likewise rest as long as they need to?
Compare to more dynamic and realistic environments -- saving the kidnapped princess before her captor gallops too far out of reach, preventing your friend from being executed at dawn, storming a castle, escaping a prison after breaking out of your cell, crossing the desert before you run out of water -- there is no resting during these scenarios without a risk analysis. If there's no pressure and no deadline, it's perfectly natural to rest as needed.
Technically, you don't need a real deadline or definite pressure to keep going -- you only need to worry or presume that there is one, enough to spur you to action as long as possible.
I think that adding official one-time resting areas in a dungeon is adding another artificial element to patch a problem created by the artificiality of the original environment.
Also, it encourages to players to think about the metagame framework rather in-game cause and effect. Which is fine if you don't mind that, but it would make a lot of other people unhappy who are looking for a more immersive game.
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ender_wiggin
First Post
Regarding the OP, I think it's a great idea and it's also one that I employ regularly.
For example, in the dangerous wilderness where PCs might have to travel for days between encounters, I rule that they are incapable of finding an safe enough area to take an extended rest. Of course, deep in these wildernesses exist log cabins, oasis (plural?), sylvian glades, etc. I place these on the fly where I think they're needed.
I don't use it as a hard and fast rule, but more of an understanding between myself and the players: they won't attempt to abuse the extended rest rules by barricading themselves somewhere, and in return, I won't push them past the point of complete resource expenditure in large dungeons.
For example, in the dangerous wilderness where PCs might have to travel for days between encounters, I rule that they are incapable of finding an safe enough area to take an extended rest. Of course, deep in these wildernesses exist log cabins, oasis (plural?), sylvian glades, etc. I place these on the fly where I think they're needed.
I don't use it as a hard and fast rule, but more of an understanding between myself and the players: they won't attempt to abuse the extended rest rules by barricading themselves somewhere, and in return, I won't push them past the point of complete resource expenditure in large dungeons.
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