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D&D 5E No more D&D MtG Premier Sets (Blogatog & State of the Game sources)

If it sold well, WoTC would be fools not to do more D&D sets in the main Magic releases. Hasbro has profit expectations.

it sold well, but it's to specific subset of people, mostly D&D & Forgotten Realms fans, not more traditional MtG fans. A product that does crazy well with a particular subset of the players is what Supplemental sets are for, Premiere Sets are for the broader fandom. Apparently Supplemental Sets can do extremely profitable as well, I mean the most profitable set as far as I know this year, was Modern Horizons 2, which surprised me because it's NOT standard legal and it's really mostly targeted towards enfrancised hard-core players and collectors and Varthos, not casuals many of whom are put off by the higher price (which admittedly was worth it)

Supplemental Sets also have ALOT more freedom in what mechanics and how many mechanics they use and mixing mechanics and reprints and how many Legends the set can have, and they can and often do have higher power levels.

I think a supplement that learns from AFRs successes and mistakes and takes the freedom and space that supplemental sets offer (such as Commander Legends, Conspiracy, Battle Bond, and Modern Horizons 1&2) to innovate can be vastly more profitable then AFR.

Here is a link to Mark saying AFR sold well.

 

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It did sell well, and they will do more D&D sets, they just won’t be “premier” sets (meaning, standard-legal). Presumably because they think they will sell better as supplemental sets. And they’re probably right about that.

Agreed, Supplement sets have far more freedom then Standard legal sets which have more restrictions.
 

jeremypowell

Adventurer
100% kitchen table player here: apart from not being able to use the cards in the Standard competitive format, which I wasn't planning to ever do anyway, I have no idea what this declaration actually means.

Here's the best way I can come up with to ask the question: without any changes to the AFR cards themselves or the various booster formats etc. in which they were released, could AFR have been a non-premier set if WotC had simply declared it to be not Standard-legal?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
100% kitchen table player here: apart from not being able to use the cards in the Standard competitive format, which I wasn't planning to ever do anyway, I have no idea what this declaration actually means.
That’s pretty much all it means. “Premier set” is just the term WotC uses for standard-legal sets.
Here's the best way I can come up with to ask the question: without any changes to the AFR cards themselves or the various booster formats etc. in which they were released, could AFR have been a non-premier set if WotC had simply declared it to be not Standard-legal?
Yep, they could have released the exact same set as a supplemental set instead of a premier set if they wanted to. Same design, same boosters, same everything. I suppose they would have needed to release it at a different time of the year, since premier sets are released on a specific schedule and supplemental sets are released between them.

The thing is, had AFR been a supplemental set instead of a premier set, there are a lot of things that could have been done differently. Premier sets have a lot of constraints on them due to being legal in the Standard format that supplemental sets don’t. A big one is how mechanically complex the set is allowed to be. There are a lot of mechanics in Magic that could have been a great fit for AFR thematically (Party, level up, etc.) but weren’t, in part because Premier sets are only able to have so many different mechanics in them, to keep their complexity appropriate for a standard legal set. Another example is power level. Premier sets need to be an appropriate power level for the standard format, but supplemental sets can have stronger cards, since they don’t have to go through standard.
 
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That’s pretty much all it means. “Premier set” is just the term WotC uses for standard-legal sets.

Yep, they could have released the exact same set as a premier set instead of a standard legal set if they wanted to. Same design, same boosters, same everything. I suppose they would have needed to release it at a different time of the year, since premier sets are released on a specific schedule and supplemental sets are released between them.

The thing is, had AFR been a supplemental set instead of a premier set, there are a lot of things that could have been done differently. Premier sets have a lot of constraints on them due to being legal in the Standard format that supplemental sets don’t. A big one is how mechanically complex the set is allowed to be. There are a lot of mechanics in Magic that could have been a great fit for AFR thematically (Party, level up, etc.) but weren’t, in part because Premier sets are only able to have so many different mechanics in them, to keep their complexity appropriate for a standard legal set. Another example is power level. Premier sets need to be an appropriate power level for the standard format, but supplemental sets can have stronger cards, since they don’t have to go through standard.

Party still wouldn't have worked directly, because the mechanic itself sets server restrictions on any set its in, you need a ton of Clerics, Warriors, Rogues, and Wizards which means there is little room for other class creature types or monsters like Beholders.

Instead it could have had cards that enable party like some clerics/warriors/wizards/rogues, but also maybe a card that tutors for those creature types for example. For example a rare land that when you play a clerics/warriors/wizards/rogue, you can look at the top card of your library and if it's a
clerics/warriors/wizards/rogues, you can play it. Think a party based version of Biblioplex, instead of instant/sorceries. They could call it Yawning Portal Tavern or something.


Otherwise I agree with what you wrote.
 

Myrdin Potter

Adventurer
Supplemental sets have inherent lower appeal. If you are not reprinting existing powerful cards to be played in other that Standard formats, you need a set to be standard legal for the number of cards and draw of needing it for the main format for a couple of years.

The real truth is that they dialed down the power level as several previous ones were too much the other way. If they has put better cards into AFR, much less complaints.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
Supplemental sets have inherent lower appeal.
That just isn’t true. Look at Modern Horizons (both of them). Look at Time Spiral Remastered. Supplemental sets sell, and often at higher prices than premier sets.
If you are not reprinting existing powerful cards to be played in other that Standard formats,you need a set to be standard legal for the number of cards and draw of needing it for the main format for a couple of years.
As long as you’re printing powerful cards to be played in other formats, it doesn’t really matter if they’re reprints of existing cards. Powerful new cards sell sets too.
The real truth is that they dialed down the power level as several previous ones were too much the other way. If they has put better cards into AFR, much less complaints.
That doesn’t seem to be the feedback AFR has been getting. The majority of the feedback is very polarized, due to tension between the interests of the set’s two target audiences: Enfranchised Magic players who want a good standard set, and casual, new, and lapsed Magic players who are attracted by the D&D branding and theming. The former group care about the power level of the set relative to the rest of the standard environment, but the latter group does not. The former group hated dice rolling in black border Magic, the latter loved it. The former group couldn’t care less that there wasn’t an Elminster card in the set, the latter is (apparently) furious about it.

What’s the solution? Don’t make sets like this premier sets any more. That way design decisions can be made to appeal specifically to the latter group, without impacting the standard environment and upsetting the former group.
 

Im not a MtG player. I think in my 46 years I've played twice, maybe three times. Not knocking it, just wasnt my thing, was always a D&D player. MtG meets D&D or vice versa seems forced to me like that person in high school that tried to hang out with everyone because they didnt fit in with any of them. I'd like to see WotC concentrate on creating products for MtG fans or D&D fans, but not both.
 





Stormonu

Legend
Im not a MtG player. I think in my 46 years I've played twice, maybe three times. Not knocking it, just wasnt my thing, was always a D&D player. MtG meets D&D or vice versa seems forced to me like that person in high school that tried to hang out with everyone because they didnt fit in with any of them. I'd like to see WotC concentrate on creating products for MtG fans or D&D fans, but not both.
I’ve actively avoided playing Magic myself in the past (exception: Battlebond, and couldn’t resist collecting Khaldheim), but I am enjoying a D&D Theros campaign, ran a Ravnica one-shot and I am eagerly looking forward to Strixhaven, so I really would like to see more MtG in D&D (especially Amonket, the Egyptian-themed plane), and it might get me to play & collect magic a bit more often.

With this FR set, though I didn’t buy any for myself, though my son did, and I ended up with the module cover lands.
 

Never did well with holding cards, whether it was MtG or spades/hearts. Admittedly I bought the MtG D&D books, there on the shelf is where they sit, but I'd never say they were bad books, just not what I'd hoped for. Strixthaven sounds fun: right group and such. My players laughed at me when told them to make a sanity check in Ravenloft. So Im limited as Im sure other groups are to what they can run. Youve got people who play D&D and then theres people that play Planescape. Moral being, know your audience.
 

It did sell well, and they will do more D&D sets, they just won’t be “premier” sets (meaning, standard-legal). Presumably because they think they will sell better as supplemental sets. And they’re probably right about that.

Breaking down the market for D&D MtG sets you have Spikes who dislike AFR for what they see as it's weakness more then its flavour.

Timmies come for the Dragons and other big creatures, so as long as they aren't put off by the flavour, they could be fine with AFR & future D&D sets.

Johnny's might be mostly concerned about power levels, but attracted to the usual game play and chaos of dice rolling.

I think the biggest flavour backlash is coming from the Vorthos community.

Melanie's are probably the most divided group depending on how they feel about dice rolling, but also the group most upset about no party, level up, Sagas, Experience, etc... in the set.

There are two more groups outside the normal ones to consider too, and these two groups, plus Johnny's and maybe Timmies are what's keeping AFR selling well instead of tanking.

D&D fans, largely the group who is happiest with this set, probably the the biggest set of buyers I'm guessing, in large amounts.

Forgotten Realms fans are alot less happy with the flavour then D&D fans (there is over lap between this group & D&D fans, but they aren't the same thing), the names of many of the modal cards and some of the others are extremely unimmersive, there is no Elminster, and other beloved characters are absent, and the set is extremely light on lore, but there is enough FR lore, characters, and flavour to still get them buying the set in large amounts.

Making the set a Commander Legends/Modern Horizons: FR type product will do much to attract the Spikes, Johnny's, Melanies, and Timmies, will cut back alot on the complaining of the Vorthos and others who don't like the flavour mixing, and there will be more lore space for FR fans. D&D fans are the easiest to make happy, keep dice rolling, better dungeons, lots of D&D creatures/spells/items, and make sure to port it to Arena like MH1&2 cards are they will buy tons of it.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It did sell well, and they will do more D&D sets, they just won’t be “premier” sets (meaning, standard-legal). Presumably because they think they will sell better as supplemental sets. And they’re probably right about that.
I ended up buying 5 boxes of Forgotten Realms and I haven't bought a box in several years. Oh, well. I guess I get to no spend my money on boxes again.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
I ended up buying 5 boxes of Forgotten Realms and I haven't bought a box in several years. Oh, well. I guess I get to no spend my money on boxes again.
Or you could just… you know, buy boxes of other D&D supplemental sets when they come out. Because it seems inevitable that they will. In fact, you sound like exactly the target audience for such sets.

Am I just speaking Greek when I say “premier set just means standard legal”?
 


Supplemental sets have inherent lower appeal. If you are not reprinting existing powerful cards to be played in other that Standard formats, you need a set to be standard legal for the number of cards and draw of needing it for the main format for a couple of years.

The real truth is that they dialed down the power level as several previous ones were too much the other way. If they has put better cards into AFR, much less complaints.

You under estimated the number of players who didn't like mixing the settings.
 

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