D&D General No More "Humans in Funny Hats": Racial Mechanics Should Determine Racial Cultures

[Crimson Longinus]

Confused: Are you saying it's not fun for you as a player to choose what you want, and you want to be forced into a particular method of doing so? If so, why? I've known a few people like that, but mostly they didn't want to put in the effort needed to actually make the character and play the game.

Or are you saying it's not fun for you as a DM to let the players have choices and have fun? If so, wow. And not a good wow, either.

Considering that we are talking about D&D which inherently is a splat based game, with character building options restricted by class and race, I have hard time understanding how you could not get why some people like having the splats mechanically define and limit things.

Like think why you play D&D with classes instead of something like GURPS where you could build your character from scratch. Then just apply that same reason to the races. Now you finally get how some here feel. Grats!

 

[Scribe]

Sure, it's a layer, but what I'm asking is if there is a way for them remove ASIs and still make a fullfiling race for you to play. Is there a way to remove this layer but add another that satisfies you?

Yeah, it's not about playing for me here. Its about a pleasing system. Simply the act of thinking, creating, planning, character builds, is for some a pleasing thing to do.

Its less so now.

Playing? Heck who cares about your +1 once we are actually playing, I dont think about it at all after the character is made/planned.

 

[Faolyn]

Yes, with Floating ASI, everything is more of the same. This is reinforced by you later.

Without a layer for ASI consideration, you have "What race benefits my class most based on the 1 or 2 special rules a race gets."

Characters will be, objectively, more the same, because you can always optimize your ASI.

As opposed to being objectively more the same because you're always going for the same sort of race/class combo. Or even just being objectively more the same because all players playing the same class are going to end up with the same stats anyway, since it maxes out at 20.

Plus, why are you ignoring the other five stats, the racial traits, the character's personality and background, and the way the player's plays them? Are you really trying to claim that every single aspect of a character needs to be entirely different from every other character out there? Hate to say it (there were undoubtaly lots of 3x tiefling paladins, since it's a common subversion of a common trope), but that's impossible, and also really dumb. Even if you give two people the exact same pregen character and they're going to play them differently.

Right. Its now 2 questions, instead of 3. There is no consideration, because you can always put your ASI wherever you want. That is 1 less thing to consider.

So why is that bad?

Exactly. Floating removes any tension,

What tension? You're using point buy or stat array! There's no tension in that; you already know what the results are, and it's immediately obvious where to place your best stats. The only question is where that 8 and 10 are going to be.

Now, rolling creates tension. You have no idea what you're going to get. I've rolled up plenty of stats where nothing was above a 12, or where half the rolls are below 5.

any counter balance, and simply you put your stats wherever you want.

Orc Lock?
Gnome Lock?
Elf Lock?
Tiefling Lock?

+2 Cha.

As opposed to the way that it currently is, where everyone will be putting their highest roll in their main stat anyway. With fixed ASIs, everybody is going to have either a 15 or a 17. That's not actually interesting or balancing.

Unless you're trying to tell me that you never play race/class combos where you the race would give you a +2 in the class' prime stat...?

Same, same, same, same.

And again, why are orc fighters, tiefling warlocks, and halfling rogues not "same, same, same, same"?

I'm not saying anything is bad, but its certainly less fun (TO ME) because...

Yes, this is fun. You have entire websites dedicated to optimization, builds, analysis, and design.

So it's OK for you to optimize, but not for other people to optimize a different way.

It does exist though, and for those of us who enjoy it, its lessened now.

Because now you have to look at the traits and culture and think about something other than just the ASIs?

 

[Scribe]

As opposed to being objectively more the same because you're always going for the same sort of race/class combo.

See, but your initial premise is fundamentally flawed. This is not true.

 

[Bolares]

Yeah, it's not about playing for me here. Its about a pleasing system. Simply the act of thinking, creating, planning, character builds, is for some a pleasing thing to do.

Its less so now.

Playing? Heck who cares about your +1 once we are actually playing, I dont think about it at all after the character is made/planned.

I derive the same pleasure from thinking, creating, planning, character builds, assume I'm talking about that when I say playing.

I'm just curious if ASIs are the thing that make you care or layers, and if its layers what do you think could replace ASIs and still make the game pleasing to you. Have you seen what Level up does with races? If yes, what do you think about it?

 

[Scribe]

So it's OK for you to optimize, but not for other people to optimize a different way.

I dont care if you optimize, take that up with the other guy.

 

[Scribe]

I derive the same pleasure from thinking, creating, planning, character builds, assume I'm talking about that when I say playing.

I'm just curious if ASIs are the thing that make you care or layers, and if its layers what do you think could replace ASIs and still make the game pleasing to you. Have you seen what Level up does with races? If yes, what do you think about it?

I built out a system that AcererakTriple6 was also working on, which it turns out is similar to what Level up did.

I broke the ASI out to +1 for Race, +1 for Class, and +1 for Background.

Its a fine system, and offers a bit of what I am looking for, it allows people to build out their stat's piece by piece, and not all races have access to the same +1.

I also take the 20 cap off (Level up also did this it looks like in some cases, maybe its just special items) and put limits on Small (keyword) races, while giving them other benefits.

It was a fun exercise, then I think summer hit and I was busy.

So in short: Yes, having additional layers matter, is better than less, but I also want limitations, restrictions, and different benefits.

As I think on it now, I also get less joy out of it, because I dont want to build the puzzle, I want to solve it, so I pay others to build the puzzle. If that makes sense.

 

[Faolyn]

Considering that we are talking about D&D which inherently is splat based game, with character building options restricted by class and race, I have hard time understanding how you could not get why some people like having splats mechanically define and limit things.

Like think why you play D&D with classes instead of something like GURPS where you could build your character from scratch. Then just apply that same reason to the races. Now you finally get how some here feel. Grats!

I ran D&D (Ravenloft) several times using GURPS, because I didn't really care for 3x or 4e. GURPS even has it's quite enormous Dungeon Fantasy line, which is basically D&D using GURPS rules. So I don't get what you're saying here.

If you want limitations, that's fine. What's not fine is saying (1) that everyone has to have limitations because you like them, and (2) that the only reason I don't want them is because I'm some sort of powergamer who only cares about high stats.

 

[Scribe]

If you want limitations, that's fine. What's not fine is saying (1) that everyone has to have limitations because you like them, and (2) that the only reason I don't want them is because I'm some sort of powergamer who only cares about high stats

I've repeatedly said you won't have limits.

I've repeatedly said you don't want them, because you want to put stats where you want, but it's not a requirement, it's a want.

You repeatedly ask me to tell you why I want limits, when I've done so.

I want limits and restrictions, because it's an additional layer which also communicates World building.

You won't have them, ever, if you don't want to.

 

[d24454_modern]

So you can play against type.

If you have a +2 from race in your class specialty, then you’re not playing against the type.