No Random treasure !?!?...

[Wormwood]

Now we are just supposed to pick items that would excite your players and items they can actually use.

Shocking!

 

[ravenight]

Right, exactly. If you don't like the idea of players finding a magical Christmas-tree inside your dungeon, then make finding the items they want into side quests.

I actually love random items and constantly complain that there aren't more random item creation possibilities in computer games I play, but having the default system set to ensure that things make sense if the players have items that are actually useful to them seems like the most sensible way to do it. You can always take all the items of the appropriate level, list them out in some order, then roll dice to figure out which one drops. Since the rarity of items is clearly spelled out by their level, you don't have to worry about needing a table to balance this. You can even mix items of different levels by giving them different weights on a d100.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

What I don't like is that, given the scarcity of magic items, how in the holy living hell are characters only able to get one-fifth of an item's market value for it? That's just stupid. "Hey, guys, I just found this sword whose like hasn't been seen in a hundred years! Anybody wanna give me 2 bucks for it?!?" Just plain dumb.

I think the common explanation is that magic items are rare enough that you can't just sell them to anyone. Most people either aren't interested in them, or don't have the capital to afford them. Those that can are well-connected merchants who basically have to buy that low to make profit off of them, because they have to put so much effort into reselling the item.

Another interpretation I've seen is that the merchants who buy your magic sword for 1/5 market price are actually disenchanting the item for the residuum, then using the enchant magic item ritual to create whatever item it is that their next customer wants. That way, they're not really making much money off of it percentage-wise (though still a lot in gp value), and it justifies selling for 10-40% above market price.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Let me see if I can get you guys on board with this, because I think it's decent advice for novice DMs.

Axiom 1) Good DMs give players magic items they can use.
Axiom 2) Good DMs make treasure seem appropriate to the location it was found in.

If you agree with both 1 & 2, then I hope you'll agree with
Corollary A) Great DMs give players magic items they can use, and make it seem completely natural that the PCs would find those items in the places they find them.

Okay, now a second set of axioms.
Axiom 3) The DM, particularly a novice DM, does not always have as much rules knowledge the aggregate of her players' knowledge.
Axiom 4) The DM, particularly a novice DM, does not always know what his players want from the game.
Axiom 5) The best way for a DM to find out something the players know and she doesn't is to ask them.

So if a DM doesn't know what's best for each of her players, but wants to give them treasure that they want, what should she do? I think she should ask the players what they want, and try to make it seem natural that the PCs should find the items they want.

I don't think the idea of giving the PCs treasure they want or need is particularly controversial; it's the idea that it might not make sense for the players to find just the right item they need. Too much coincidence smacks of Deus Ex Machina. But the DMG suggestion of asking players what they want for their characters doesn't address that--it's simply suggesting that DMs ask their players what they want, and give it to them, which is (IMO) simply good DMing.

As an aside, I think it's trivially easy to give the PCs treasure they can use and make it seem like an organic part of adventure design. You just need to design adventures with the PCs in mind. The Cleric finds a holy symbol of his deity because he's on a quest that relates to his deity--maybe it was stolen by some temple raiders, or it belonged to a long-dead saint of his order whose remains he needs to touch to receive a blessing. The Warlock finds a Pact Blade because she was sent by her mistress to defeat an errant member of her coven. The Fighter who has Weapon Focus: Greatsword is given a +2 Greatsword in reward for serving the king, because everyone in the kingdom knows that the great knight Sir Hackemslashem wields a glimmering greatsword. This is what good storytelling is all about: giving the audience what it wants, and hiding the pandering well enough that the inclusion seems natural.

 

[Obryn]

Hey, I miss my random treasure tables, too.

But frankly, I re-rolled results so many times I might as well have just picked 'em.

If you want to make sure your players get an interesting - rather than immediately useful - selection of items, go to town. Pick and choose, have a blast.

I have a feeling that someone will come out with random treasure tables before long - either WotC or a third party under the GSL.

-O

 

[ExploderWizard]

To OP I think you are mistaken- there are no magic items in the DMG in the first place, they are in the PHB. When the wish list menu is in the PHB why not have wishlists? Why have players figure out what an item does? There are only so many items per "slot" of a given level so its mostly a no brainer anyway. Give the players exactly what they expect so they can check off thier shopping lists. Heck, while you are at it advertise whats in the loot pile before they fight a monster so they can decide to fight it or not based on its loot table. Life is too short to spend time killing monsters with crappy loot. Crappy loot drops are.........well....unfun.

 

[useridunavailable]

I think the common explanation is that magic items are rare enough that you can't just sell them to anyone. Most people either aren't interested in them, or don't have the capital to afford them. Those that can are well-connected merchants who basically have to buy that low to make profit off of them, because they have to put so much effort into reselling the item.

Another interpretation I've seen is that the merchants who buy your magic sword for 1/5 market price are actually disenchanting the item for the residuum, then using the enchant magic item ritual to create whatever item it is that their next customer wants. That way, they're not really making much money off of it percentage-wise (though still a lot in gp value), and it justifies selling for 10-40% above market price.

Yeah, I understand it, but I still don't like it. It still doesn't explain why you can't post an ad in every Waterdeep tavern stating that you'd like to sell item X for 50% of its market value. There's bound to be a market for it in a Metropolis. Even if you're not selling to adventurers who want to use it, there's gotta be some noble who collects the darned things as showpieces. Of course, by the time you're selling/DEing your items, they're going to be worth so much less than the items you need now that it's kind of petty to implement this marginally believeable magical economy in the first place. At any rate, my wizard will just be DEing his old stuff to make potions, so it's largely irrelevant anyway. One of the best things about D&D: everything is mutable.

 

[useridunavailable]

Crappy loot drops are.........well....unfun.

Hah! Loot drops! Hilarious. I can't tell you how many Void Crystals I ended up with before they were worth anything (I'd already quit by the time that changed).

 

[Zimri]

Having the players ENCOURAGED to go "Hmm, I'm almost paragon, whats the best once-per-day item out there since I can use a second soon" seems a bit much.

I think in that case the larger issue is players looking for "the best tool to min/max with" rather than something that better fits their character from a role-playing point of view. Nothing says you need to give them precisely what they ask for but something useful from the correct "ballpark" upsets you ?

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Yeah, I understand it, but I still don't like it. It still doesn't explain why you can't post an ad in every Waterdeep tavern stating that you'd like to sell item X for 50% of its market value. There's bound to be a market for it in a Metropolis. Even if you're not selling to adventurers who want to use it, there's gotta be some noble who collects the darned things as showpieces. Of course, by the time you're selling/DEing your items, they're going to be worth so much less than the items you need now that it's kind of petty to implement this marginally believeable magical economy in the first place. At any rate, my wizard will just be DEing his old stuff to make potions, so it's largely irrelevant anyway. One of the best things about D&D: everything is mutable.

Thing is, by the core's implied setting, a metropolis like Waterdeep is definitely the exception. It's more like finding that one travelling merchant in the village of Auckney that has enough cash to buy the item off you, but he's only going to pay 1/5 market value for it.

Also, posting an ad like that in a metropolis: you don't think that advertising that you had such valuable commodities would make you a target for theft, B&E, or murder? Seriously, magic items are fairly small, light forms of great wealth, they'd be prime targets for the criminal underground, especially when magic is rare. That's why the people that devote their lives to merchanthood are the ones who trade the items - they have the connections and contacts to (relatively) safely resell the items without advertising (and getting stabbed and robbed).