No Random treasure !?!?...

[GoodKingJayIII]

To be honest a peasant couldn't afford a mundane weapon. 15gp for a sword is way too much for them. I'm talking about minor nobles, etc. I'm sure they could scrounge together the under 1k over a few years and afford one of these "rare" items.

Well, first of all, that assumes magic items can be bought and sold. That's a case-by-case thing, not an inherent understanding of the system. (Though 4e does mention merchants and the possibility that certain ones might possess magic items, I recall it also mentioning that this is not usually the case). The other thing to remember is 10-40% markup on all magic items. Which you might've included in your anecdotal example, I was just adding it in to be clear.

I've always looked at it as a risk/reward thing. A noble might save up thousands of gold for a coveted magical item; if he's not willing to go out and get it himself, he'll have to commission it, make it himself, or hope he gets lucky.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

OK DM these are the items aI really like, sdo something about it. Deus Ex Mechanica anyone???

OK, but the CHARACTERS don't know the players gave the DM a list...

A lot of the random stocking dungeons was to spark your imagination and find out how exactly that item got there. Then use that to inspire your story for the dungeon.

So, I guess that the first item my group found being an old family heirloom for our dragonborn fighter AND which ties her previously-kidnapped brother in with the bad guys in some manner the party hasn't figured out yet just isn't any imagination spark or anything? Hrm. Interesting. Oh, wait, I know, the difference is the spark was initiated by the player's backstory instead of a random chart...that's gotta be the problem!

Now we are just supposed to pick items that would excite your players and items they can actually use.

Help me out here. This is bad, how, exactly?

Also there's no more ID'ing items, you just know exactly what bonus they give and power they have automatically. WTF???

Thank the gods.

 

[pr1]

I agree with the original post in a sense. Random or not, I think it's troubling that "default" in D&D is starting to be things like magic item wish lists. When I make dungeons, I always put in what I think would actually be there in, plus one or two useful items I think would be "interesting" but intentionally not tailor-made for the characters. For that kind of stuff, they can try to buy an item, hope the random tables have mercy on them, or ask around and maybe hear about one buried under the rubble of an ancient ruin....

A lot of people corretly point out that you can play whatever kind of game you want; build your own magic item tables. 4e doesn't have to play like a video game. But it's worth bringing up situations like this because, if you find enough of them, you're fighting the rules to play the game you want to play. I don't know much about 4e, didn't look like what I wanted to play. But even if magic item wish lists aren't "mandatory," they're still a problem if you don't like that sort of thing.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

See, I have a problem with axiom 1, there. 's' probably why I will always want a random treasure generator with my D&D, even though I rarely use it. Usually, I can rely on my own creativity to come up with magical treasures that are both useful and frustrating. Some of the most heated discussions I have ever heard were my players debating whether they should sell a magical spoon that creates gruel, or keep it for provisions.

Well then, you obviously game them a magical item they could use. In an RP-heavy game, feeding yourself might not be a trivial concern. An actually useless item would be a +3 sword for a party of wizards, or a set of +2 plate mail when no one can get above scale--but again, an RP-heavy group would think to use those items as negotiating tokens with NPCs who can use them.

Randomly rolled treasure makes an okay starting point if you're fresh out of ideas, but using it wholesale makes the game feel like NetHack, at least from the DM's side of the screen. It has the concurrent problems of giving treasure that's not useful and that makes no sense for the adventure, unless the DM finesses things a bit.

....
..<.
.&..
....
..@.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm seeing both sides of the debate here.

Yes, wishlists are meta and unimaginative. And yes, random generators are nonsensical. Both options are equally bad, IMO. So here is what I do...maybe it will help you out.

When I place treasure, I prefer it to be random...so I will use a random treasure generator. But like many have said, most of these random results don't make a whole lot of sense, so I will reroll or hand-pick anything that doesn't quite fit. If an owlbear treasure turns up a fine china tea set, I will replace it with something more befitting of the monster and the terrain, but having the same value as that tea set: an elephant skull with both ivory tusks still intact, maybe?

And remember, "treasure" doesn't have to be translated as "something the monster owns," either. Perhaps a rare type of mushroom happened to be growing next to where the battle occured, that functions as a potion of whatever if eaten within 2 hours (roll or choose a potion of the same value as the rolled treasure amount.)

I admit, it is a lot of work. But my players appreciate that extra attention to detail.

 

[Storminator]

I made my first adventure for my son, based on a quest idea he had. But I mad the whole adventure. And then I realized that playing a D&D PC didn't give him nearly the narrative control he wants. He wants to put a tree over there to hide behind... he wants to go white water rafting to save the NPC... he wants his mom's PC to speak Draconic so they can have a secret language...

So next adventure I'll be getting a wish list of things he wants to see in his adventure. Not just treasure, but monsters, villains, quests, terrain and maybe a trap or two. He might not be very surprised by anything, but I bet he thinks it's the most awesome game ever.

And once he gets all the rules down and figures out how to handle a table, I'm making him the DM.

PS

 

[Imperialus]

I thought I heard somewhere that in medieval Europe, a sword cost about a year's salary for your typical soldier/guard/etc. Could be wrong.

Sometimes... People seem to forget that the economy of the middle ages was in many ways just as dynamic as it is today. In the early middle ages (or dark ages if you prefer) swords were a rarity and very much a status symbol because of the complexity of their construction. As metal working techniques improved the cost of swords went down. By the late middle ages most professional soldiers, regardless of social class could afford a 'longknife' which would be better described as a short sword.

There is actually some evidence that the price of arming swords (longswords) was kept artificially high so that they could maintain their significance as status symbols. Your average fully armoured knight tended to use weapons like the flanged mace and warhammer because they were much better for dealing with the modern suits of armour.

 

[pr1]

There is actually some evidence that the price of arming swords (longswords) was kept artificially high so that they could maintain their significance as status symbols. Your average fully armoured knight tended to use weapons like the flanged mace and warhammer because they were much better for dealing with the modern suits of armour.

There's some speculation that medieval arming swords weren't such an important weapon at all for actual combat. Knight might have fought with them, clumsily and sub-optimally, when dismounted, but they might have had an easier time with daggers, since that sort of combat was a lot more like wrestling. As armor improved, you go the direction of zwiehanders (demonstrably powerful enough to reliably go through plate, unlike the arming sword) or maces. To the extent this sort of thing became about class and not effectiveness, the sword became thinner, and more ornamental, and you get rapiers, epees, and the scottish broadsword.

 

[Imperialus]

They were still used, particularly for dealing with lightly armored infantry.

For a fantastic example of how two knights would have actually gotten into a serious scrap check out the book The Last Duel. It's about the last judicial duel fought in France in the 14th or 15th century. IIRC the two combatants go at it with axes, maces, and everything but swords. They eventually end up rolling around in the dirt stabbing each other with daggers but the sword doesn't make an appearance.

 

[jdrakeh]

Help me out here. This is bad, how, exactly?

I guess this is what I don't understand. The main complaint here seems to be less about the actual magic items than it is about actively taking some responsibility as a DM and working with the players to ensure that they're having fun by giving them things that they want or can use.

I see multiple times on this thread the assertion that giving players useful magic items they want (and that make sense for the campaign) is total bullocks. And I don't understand that at all. Somehow giving players a random grab bag of crap makes the game better?