Non-Core Class Survivor Spin-off: Pro-psionics or anti-psionics
- Thread starter Glyfair
- Start date
I voted Keep me out of this one! but I guess I'm semi-pro psionics. I like the flavour. I think in some ways there's not enough to seperate it from magic, but if there was then there'd be too many new rules. And I think it's a shame that it's kinda semi core rules that's a seperate book altogether.
When you come into the game you need the MM, DMG and PHB, and it's easily to never pick up the Psionics Handbook, especially with all the other books out there.
I think the classes have a lot hanging over their heads from the daft AD&D psionics, which is a shame, because psionics now are a lot better. Certainely my group is hesitant about them, because people haven't bought the book based on bad memories with AD&D
When you come into the game you need the MM, DMG and PHB, and it's easily to never pick up the Psionics Handbook, especially with all the other books out there.
I think the classes have a lot hanging over their heads from the daft AD&D psionics, which is a shame, because psionics now are a lot better. Certainely my group is hesitant about them, because people haven't bought the book based on bad memories with AD&D
Brian Gibbons
Explorer
Flavor. Crystal-based pseudo-science which requires me to use words like psychometabolism meshes badly with the traditional fantasy world that D&D generally assumes.blargney the second said:
Indeed, psionics meshes badly with itself. I have to laugh as I look over the psionic power list and see fantasy-ish names (like Breath of the Black Dragon or Elfsight) next to psuedo-scientific names (like Biofeedback or Id Insinuation).
I'm not inherently against psionics. Indeed, years back, I once designed the psionic class for a homebrew system. The difference was that the psionic class fit the fantasy flavor, being merely a different, more mental-based magic than wizardry. Lose the goofy pseudoscientific names, and half the objections against psionics go away.
Mechanics. I don't think that psionics is intrinsically more broken than core D&D. The problem, however, is that I already know the overpowered magical combos to disallow; I already know how specific spells work (and more importantly, how they don't work when someone is trying to slip an overpowered interpretation by me). I also know how many overpowered spells have been modified (either in 3.5, revised supplements or house rules) because of the vast numbers of players who found problems that needed to be fixed.
Using psionics means that I have to learn a new system, with roughly as much information, interpretations and quirky interrelations as the magic system. However, while the majority of the players at my table are going to be using the magic system in some shape or form, odds are all that effort learnng psionics is going into allowing only one character to use the system. I can think of far better uses for my time.
Add to all that the fact that the less-used psionic system is unlikely to have been tested as much or as thoroughly as the magical system, which means that I'm going to be running into more rough edges or ill-thought out combinations.
Take, as a contrasting example, the Binder. It's an unusual flavor, but one that could fit into most fantasy worlds in some shape or form. It has some odd mechanics, but at heart, it's simply referring back to core magical systems and spells.
Psionics doesn't try to make it easy to add to your campaign--it's a starkly dissimilar flavor with a brand new set of mechanics and powers, all of which apply to psionics and only psionics. Since little effort is made to mesh with standard D&D, it takes little effort for me to exclude it and I have little desire to put in the effort necessary to include it.
Herobizkit
Adventurer
I'm totally pro-psionics. IMO, the mechanic for psionics should be the DEFAULT mechanic for D&D magic as well.
Thanee
First Post
blargney the second said:
I don't think many people actually hate psionics. I certainly don't.
Many don't like psionics, since it doesn't fit to their image of fantasy.
I'm just very disappointed that they still don't get a decent system for psionics out. Especially since there are some good ideas in it, but it's totally screwed up in the detail. And it's very bland, just another kind of magic and not really the mental art it should be.
The XPH is certainly an improvement over the really, really crappy PsiHB, but it's not even half the way it needs to go before it could be called decent. Some playtesting would probably help, but I guess that's too expensive for such unimportant books. Getting familiar with the 3.5 design principles probably helps, too. I don't think they will ever get it right, though, it's too messed up at this point. There's just hoping, that it will never enter the Core Rules, since that would be such a waste of book space. While there are some less than great rules in the PHB as well, it's nothing of the level the XPH has. An extra book for those who like the flavor and don't mind the bad sides (or actually like them) is the only way to go there. A vast number of people simply don't want psionics for various reasons, therefore they don't belong to the Core, much like Incarnum, Pact or Path Magic, it's just not Core material.
Bye
Thanee
Arkhandus
First Post
I am most definitely pro-psionics, but not fanatically so.
In the polls, I've recently been voting to keep the psion and psychic warrior around because I honestly like their flavor, mechanics, and roles better than the other classes that have survived this far. For most of the polls I just voted against classes I really disliked, whether from thinking that they were unbalanced, or thinking they were redundant, or thinking that they made some of the core 11 redundant and worthless, or thinking they were just stupid concepts.
To my knowledge, most folks who dislike psionics in D&D have one or more of the following reasons:
1) they think it's too much like sci-fi, or that its flavor is to pseudo-scientific;
2) they don't think it has any place in a medieval fantasy RPG, because it has no significant basis in European myth and legend, for the same reasons such folks dislike oriental classes like the monk;
3) they believe that the psionics rules are too broken and unbalanced, to the point of not even giving them a fair chance in the first place, in some cases just because of bad experiences with previous editions of the rules;
4) they don't want to learn a new sub-system, no matter how much it is or isn't like the core spellcasting rules, and they think it's just too complicated on top of already having to remember the combat rules and spellcasting rules;
and/or 5) they don't like the flavor of psionics as it stands right now, and can't be bothered to just accept an alternate description of the powers and their origins, like one of the several alternate flavors of psionics that have been used by lots of groups already, and even discussed on the forums occasionally.
In Eberron psionics is just a different power than magic, but linked with Dal Quor, the realm of dreams, and is intentionally left as an optional part of Eberron campaigns since it is only significantly used by Kalashtar and the Inspired, on a separate continent from the main campaign regions, so folks can use or ignore it as they please in that setting. In the Tablelands of the Dark Sun setting (errg, brain fart, can't remember what the plane is called), psionics is just the dominant supernatural power around because magic is either of the arcane sort (hoarded by the sorcerer-kings and some comparatively weaker groups, with the hindrance of being either preservers with weaker magic or defilers who have to destroy nearby plantlife and fertile soil in order to cast strong spells), or the divine sort (restricted to some templars who draw power from the sorcerer-kings IIRC, and elemental clerics, who are few because they have to get the support of an archomental or whatever). In Faerun/Abeir-Toril, psionics is only possessed by some non-natives and their descendants, such as mind flayers, yuan-ti, and a few planewalkers who've settled on Toril, so it's practically inconsequential. In Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, psionics is just a spell descriptor for a handful of spells, that involve the use of telepathy, telekinesis, or precognition, to some extent.
Generally, people who dislike psionics just don't want to bother with any of the alternate descriptions for them because those descriptions aren't "canon" to the main D&D rules, or they just don't want to bother reading enough of the main psionics rulebook to avoid any rules-violations by players, or they just don't want to add a few houserules to their notes to keep psionic characters properly in check. Of course they wouldn't need to, if WotC didn't rush out every book and allow every designer to miss the balance problems with a few powers each time. The psionics system can easily be re-described by DMs as a form of mind-magic, or a greater and more enlightened form of ki use, or a primal connection to the minds of gods, or a strange connection to certain forces of the planes/multiverse, or an alternate magic system plain and simple, or whatever. Many folks just don't want to bother since they want Wizards of the Coast to psychically predict and tailor every single book and game element to their invidual tastes, everyone else be damned, just to save them a bit of time.
I liked 2E psionics and 3E psionics, but while I was less pleased with 3E psionics, I was very displeased with 3.5 psionics. 3.5 turned the focus of psionics ever-more into the realm of science-fictiony terms and powers, and added a godawful-stupid 'crystalpunk' theme (as I understand people have been calling it since the XPH came out). Before 3E, there was no excessive focus in the psionics rules on ectoplasm or crystal stuff; 3.0 psionics had a bit of focus on crystal and a moderate focus on ectoplasm, but not too bad, until 3.5 went whole-hog with both stupid concepts and ruined the already-fragile image of psionics. It was only slightly scientific-like in 2E, but 3E/3.5E added more pseudo-science terms to the mix rather than sticking with 2E's more eastern flavor.
I would've preferred it if 3E psionics was just a simplified and finely-tuned version of 2E psionics, which weren't all that bad aside from a few complicated or vague powers. Most psionic powers in 2E were very, very weak and limited in scope; devotions were like 1st-level spells or occasionally 2nd-level spells, and sciences were like 4th, 5th, or 6th-level spells, and the more powerful sciences or devotions had prerequisites too, which generally consisted of several weak powers that needed to be learned first. A revised version of 2E psionics would have been much more appropriate to D&D and less complicated, as well as having none of the ecto-bloat and crystal-fetish that 3.5E psionics retardedly includes.
I know full well that the psionics system has been unbalanced in spots throughout the past 3-1/2 editions, but it's not like it's been all-around overpowered the entire time. There have just been a few broken powers in each edition, that some fool designer failed to realize he'd/she'd overpowered.
I've never seen a psionic character outshine the rest of the party, as opposed to the several times I've seen melee brutes, absurdly-focused archers, and trigger-happy arcane twinks totally outdo the other PCs. As long as the DM knows what he's dealing with, a munchkin can't pull the wool over his eyes any easier with psionics than with anything else in D&D.
But, for DMs who don't bother to read the psionics rules to any reasonable extent, it's much easier for a munchkin to ruin their game with twinked-out psionicists that blithely ignore some of the rules that the DM hasn't bothered to read. Or that just use certain combinations of powers that any knowledgeable, sane DM would have outlawed (though allowing them individually; certain combinations just get wonky).
For some reason, the designers never bother to put as much effort into balancing the psionic classes as they do with the spellcasters. So a handful of broken powers, or broken combinations of powers, slip through every time due to lax authors.
In the polls, I've recently been voting to keep the psion and psychic warrior around because I honestly like their flavor, mechanics, and roles better than the other classes that have survived this far. For most of the polls I just voted against classes I really disliked, whether from thinking that they were unbalanced, or thinking they were redundant, or thinking that they made some of the core 11 redundant and worthless, or thinking they were just stupid concepts.
To my knowledge, most folks who dislike psionics in D&D have one or more of the following reasons:
1) they think it's too much like sci-fi, or that its flavor is to pseudo-scientific;
2) they don't think it has any place in a medieval fantasy RPG, because it has no significant basis in European myth and legend, for the same reasons such folks dislike oriental classes like the monk;
3) they believe that the psionics rules are too broken and unbalanced, to the point of not even giving them a fair chance in the first place, in some cases just because of bad experiences with previous editions of the rules;
4) they don't want to learn a new sub-system, no matter how much it is or isn't like the core spellcasting rules, and they think it's just too complicated on top of already having to remember the combat rules and spellcasting rules;
and/or 5) they don't like the flavor of psionics as it stands right now, and can't be bothered to just accept an alternate description of the powers and their origins, like one of the several alternate flavors of psionics that have been used by lots of groups already, and even discussed on the forums occasionally.
In Eberron psionics is just a different power than magic, but linked with Dal Quor, the realm of dreams, and is intentionally left as an optional part of Eberron campaigns since it is only significantly used by Kalashtar and the Inspired, on a separate continent from the main campaign regions, so folks can use or ignore it as they please in that setting. In the Tablelands of the Dark Sun setting (errg, brain fart, can't remember what the plane is called), psionics is just the dominant supernatural power around because magic is either of the arcane sort (hoarded by the sorcerer-kings and some comparatively weaker groups, with the hindrance of being either preservers with weaker magic or defilers who have to destroy nearby plantlife and fertile soil in order to cast strong spells), or the divine sort (restricted to some templars who draw power from the sorcerer-kings IIRC, and elemental clerics, who are few because they have to get the support of an archomental or whatever). In Faerun/Abeir-Toril, psionics is only possessed by some non-natives and their descendants, such as mind flayers, yuan-ti, and a few planewalkers who've settled on Toril, so it's practically inconsequential. In Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, psionics is just a spell descriptor for a handful of spells, that involve the use of telepathy, telekinesis, or precognition, to some extent.
Generally, people who dislike psionics just don't want to bother with any of the alternate descriptions for them because those descriptions aren't "canon" to the main D&D rules, or they just don't want to bother reading enough of the main psionics rulebook to avoid any rules-violations by players, or they just don't want to add a few houserules to their notes to keep psionic characters properly in check. Of course they wouldn't need to, if WotC didn't rush out every book and allow every designer to miss the balance problems with a few powers each time. The psionics system can easily be re-described by DMs as a form of mind-magic, or a greater and more enlightened form of ki use, or a primal connection to the minds of gods, or a strange connection to certain forces of the planes/multiverse, or an alternate magic system plain and simple, or whatever. Many folks just don't want to bother since they want Wizards of the Coast to psychically predict and tailor every single book and game element to their invidual tastes, everyone else be damned, just to save them a bit of time.
I liked 2E psionics and 3E psionics, but while I was less pleased with 3E psionics, I was very displeased with 3.5 psionics. 3.5 turned the focus of psionics ever-more into the realm of science-fictiony terms and powers, and added a godawful-stupid 'crystalpunk' theme (as I understand people have been calling it since the XPH came out). Before 3E, there was no excessive focus in the psionics rules on ectoplasm or crystal stuff; 3.0 psionics had a bit of focus on crystal and a moderate focus on ectoplasm, but not too bad, until 3.5 went whole-hog with both stupid concepts and ruined the already-fragile image of psionics. It was only slightly scientific-like in 2E, but 3E/3.5E added more pseudo-science terms to the mix rather than sticking with 2E's more eastern flavor.
I would've preferred it if 3E psionics was just a simplified and finely-tuned version of 2E psionics, which weren't all that bad aside from a few complicated or vague powers. Most psionic powers in 2E were very, very weak and limited in scope; devotions were like 1st-level spells or occasionally 2nd-level spells, and sciences were like 4th, 5th, or 6th-level spells, and the more powerful sciences or devotions had prerequisites too, which generally consisted of several weak powers that needed to be learned first. A revised version of 2E psionics would have been much more appropriate to D&D and less complicated, as well as having none of the ecto-bloat and crystal-fetish that 3.5E psionics retardedly includes.
I know full well that the psionics system has been unbalanced in spots throughout the past 3-1/2 editions, but it's not like it's been all-around overpowered the entire time. There have just been a few broken powers in each edition, that some fool designer failed to realize he'd/she'd overpowered.
I've never seen a psionic character outshine the rest of the party, as opposed to the several times I've seen melee brutes, absurdly-focused archers, and trigger-happy arcane twinks totally outdo the other PCs. As long as the DM knows what he's dealing with, a munchkin can't pull the wool over his eyes any easier with psionics than with anything else in D&D.
But, for DMs who don't bother to read the psionics rules to any reasonable extent, it's much easier for a munchkin to ruin their game with twinked-out psionicists that blithely ignore some of the rules that the DM hasn't bothered to read. Or that just use certain combinations of powers that any knowledgeable, sane DM would have outlawed (though allowing them individually; certain combinations just get wonky).
For some reason, the designers never bother to put as much effort into balancing the psionic classes as they do with the spellcasters. So a handful of broken powers, or broken combinations of powers, slip through every time due to lax authors.
JustaPlayer
First Post
I wouldn't say that I'm "pro-psionics", just that I'm anti-anti-psionics. It became clear early on that there was a group dedicating themselves and trying to form a colalition to eradicate psionics. I can really take'em or leave'em.
Similar Threads
- Locked
