D&D 5E (2014) Non evil gnoll tribes?

[OniDaimyo]

That's utterly wrong that they can't. There are non evil gnoll tribes. Its already been established as such in some settings like eberron and even forgotten realms.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I understand people wanting to play different kinds of creature races, but that should largely be guided by setting. If we're going with the 5E MM gnolls, then they could never even approach reasonable action and the answer at my table would be no.

What if you were playing Eberron? Would you allow it then? I think the option should be there, and up to DMs to say no for their particular setting. I happen to like gnolls, though I don't generally like playing evil. Odd, I know

 

[Jester David]

As has been said, it depends on the world. I know the gnolls of Kobold Press' stuff are not as evil. In the Realms and Greyhawk they're more innately evil, being strongly tied to demons. It's like a non-evil Rashasa or night hag.

From a logistics standpoint, the more possible it is to have a non-evil or even good member of a race, the harder it is to murder them without thought as adventurers.
You never stop to ask if all the gnolls in the raid are are bad, or if one was beginning to question their actions.

 

[OniDaimyo]

Its NOTHING like a non evil Rakshasha. A Rakshasha existence is tied to it being evil, a Rakshasha who stops being evil wouldn't be a Rakshasha anymore, it would become something else. I had that very discussion with Keith Baker himself. In his mind unless a creature has to be a certain alignment as part of its very existence (such as demons, devils, solars and such), then that creature doesn't always have to follow its MM alignment. A gnoll is only evil because it is brought up that way. It doesn't HAVE to be evil to exist. You DO realize back in 2cd ed they said Drow were not acceptable as a PC race right? And guess what? Now there they are, right there in the PHB. Non-evil Gnoll totally do exist. They are simply rare and probably have a hard existence. There also ARE Gnolls who are sort of like assimar versions of Gnolls out there. I've already been working own my own tribe of non evil Gnolls who are nomadic just as has been mentioned in some of the other edition guides. They live by rivers and such and fish, hunt and trade with humans. They are still agressive but only violent to those that threaten them. They attack and are attacked by the more traditional CE Gnoll tribes because that totally makes sense. The followers of Yeenoghu would definitely kill other gnolls they felt were "traitors" on sight.

 

[GreenTengu]

Its NOTHING like a non evil Rakshasha. A Rakshasha existence is tied to it being evil, a Rakshasha who stops being evil wouldn't be a Rakshasha anymore, it would become something else. I had that very discussion with Keith Baker himself. In his mind unless a creature has to be a certain alignment as part of its very existence (such as demons, devils, solars and such), then that creature doesn't always have to follow its MM alignment. A gnoll is only evil because it is brought up that way. It doesn't HAVE to be evil to exist. You DO realize back in 2cd ed they said Drow were not acceptable as a PC race right? And guess what? Now there they are, right there in the PHB. Non-evil Gnoll totally do exist. They are simply rare and probably have a hard existence. There also ARE Gnolls who are sort of like assimar versions of Gnolls out there. I've already been working own my own tribe of non evil Gnolls who are nomadic just as has been mentioned in some of the other edition guides. They live by rivers and such and fish, hunt and trade with humans. They are still agressive but only violent to those that threaten them. They attack and are attacked by the more traditional CE Gnoll tribes because that totally makes sense. The followers of Yeenoghu would definitely kill other gnolls they felt were "traitors" on sight.

Actually... you seem to have missed the typical origin of Gnolls. There may well be worlds that you can posit and create using the D&D ruleset where Gnolls are just a typical race that came about because of evolution or magic or.... something... and totally mundane, the only thing causing them to behave in a violent, aggressive, ravenous manner being culture, BUT....

The Gnolls of the standard core D&D are actually demonic creations. Just animals infused with demonic energy and without that energy that would well... just revert back to animals. Thus, just like Rakasha in your example, Gnolls have being evil as a fundamental, inherent part of their nature. At least under the current interpretations.

Now, if we were in a world like say... WarHammer... sure, there is no reason you couldn't have a tribe of Gnolls that decided to ally themselves with some humans or something, take on their culture and values and generally start acting "good" rather than "evil" (although, honestly, I am not even sure to what degree you could even call them necessarily evil in WarHammer). Honestly, I am a bit surprised with all the things they have added in World of WarCraft they never did put a horde or alliance aligned tribe of Gnolls in there or a tribe either could make friends with. Or maybe there is one and I just don't know about it.


Similarly, I think in Eberron their origin is wildly different as I think all "monsters" in that world are given a common origin, some sort of mystical energy that just creatures strange creatures out of mundane ones with some forms being considerably more common than others or something. I could be entirely incorrect, but I think that's why there is a "monster nation".

But if one is in Forgotten Realm at this point, the current default lore is that Gnolls are really as much a lesser demon as they are a proper race of people.

 

[OniDaimyo]

That's NOT true at all. There are Gnolls with Assimar blood in them out there AND in 4th ed they talked about playing non evil Gnolls. They don't have to be evil to exist. I mean haven't you heard of Tieflings? They simply have demonic blood in them but it doesn't mean they can never ever be neutral or even good.

Agree to disagree? Cause I'm not agreeing they can't be good in the Forgotten Realms, where all kinds of whacky crap happens anyway and where ONE good Drow has given birth to a Good drow godess and her followers...Cause I don't remember jack about Ellistrayee before Drizzt came around...So I say nay to you. MEATBALL THE GNOLL SHALL LEAD THE WAY TO GOOD, ERR NEUTRAL GNOLLS WHO LIKE TO EAT LOTS OF STUFF!

 

[OniDaimyo]

Also from Forgotten Realms wiki on Gnolls and Variant Culture gnolls: And this IS from a Forgotten Realms specific wiki. Not a D&D in general wiki

"Though most gnoll packs embrace their reputation for savagery, others refrain from such utter depravity. These clans are also nomadic but unlike the others rarely engage in violent raids except when seriously provoked. Likewise, though they retain the natural gnoll bloodlust they take no joy in torture or unnecessary cruelty, embracing hunting and tracking over outright slaughter.

In some cases these gnolls might even come to befriend or at least peacefully interact with the members of other races, offering their services as trappers or hunters. Generally, however, gnolls prefer their own kind and except when on business rarely visit neighboring villages dominated by members of another race. Likewise, these gnolls remain aggressive and quick to anger, meaning visitors should be careful not to offend."

 

[Mirtek]

The novel "Soldiers of Ice" feature a non-evil tribe of gnolls who still worship Gorellik. They work with the protagonists to stop the book's evil

That's NOT true at all.

Unfortunately it's true now. 5e (and before that 4e but not to such a large degree) has ret-conned the origin of the gnoll race. Before they were just another type of humanoid and Yeenoghu was an interloper who one day discovered them, took a liking to them and managed to supplant their former deities.

In 5e Yeenoghu is the actual creator of the gnoll race, thus making him no longer an interloper (and the concept of the orginal gnoll deities might no longer exist in their new lore)

The aforementioned novel was written under the old lore of Yeenoghu just being a demondeity who seduced the majority of the gnoll race but does not in fact have a legitimate claim to them

 

[GreenTengu]

That's NOT true at all. There are Gnolls with Assimar blood in them out there AND in 4th ed they talked about playing non evil Gnolls. They don't have to be evil to exist. I mean haven't you heard of Tieflings? They simply have demonic blood in them but it doesn't mean they can never ever be neutral or even good.

Agree to disagree? Cause I'm not agreeing they can't be good in the Forgotten Realms, where all kinds of whacky crap happens anyway and where ONE good Drow has given birth to a Good drow godess and her followers...Cause I don't remember jack about Ellistrayee before Drizzt came around...So I say nay to you. MEATBALL THE GNOLL SHALL LEAD THE WAY TO GOOD, ERR NEUTRAL GNOLLS WHO LIKE TO EAT LOTS OF STUFF!

Well, there were different takes on what Gnolls were in 3rd edition. What it said in 4th edition about Gnolls would apply to Nentervale or whatever the setting is called ("Points of Light") where I am given to understand they are neutral. Sure, because the new original setting was "core", 4e tried to force all other D&D settings to adhere to its new lore. Within THAT setting, by all means Gnolls can be good aligned.

The lore of what a race is does not have to be consistent from world to world in D&D. In fact, it shouldn't be consistent world to world-- what exactly is the point of having different settings if all the peoples in it are completely identical across them.

Now-- certainly in previous editions of Forgotten Realms, possibly due to the "spell plague", there were neutral or good Gnolls in the Forgotten Realms. However, the effects of that were reversed. Currently within Forgotten Realms, and we can only speak for Forgotten Realms, Gnolls are very much akin to the Rakasha.

Given the fact that someone working late 3rd edition and in 4th edition had a whole thing for Gnolls well above and beyond other even more popular monster races, I don't doubt there was a big attempt to push them as a not unexpected "good" race. Afterall, they were printed as a PC race in both Races of the Wild and within 4th Edition. However, that was a massive reversal from their understood origin and nature before that point.

Just comparing Gnolls vs. Orcs

We went from "Gnolls and Orcs are always evil without exception, do not stay your blade even in the case of babies, any idea of playing one is obviously a joke and we will treat it as such" in 1st edition, to "Gnolls and Orcs can be heroes if you really insist, but everyone will hate them and try to kill them and here is some really imbalanced stat blocks for them" in 2nd, to "Gnolls are totally evil, but Orcs can be noble and good at time even if they aren't half-human.. oh, wait, sorry just kidding about Gnolls, turns out they can be good guys too" in 3rd to "Gnolls are sometimes good and a very common hero race while Orcs are basically evil to the last one and there is no point but to make the most token effort towards allowing someone to play one in an unofficial nonsanctioned game" in 4th to "Orcs can sometimes be good and so we will print a totally badly designed racial template for PCs to use if they really insist, but Gnolls are entirely evil down to the last one so we will provide no template." in 5th.

But given the current concept for them, if it is impossible to have a good or neutral aligned Rakasha, it is equally impossible to have a good or neutral aligned Gnoll. Within the current incarnation of Forgotten Realms. And for the exact same reason-- both are infused with chaotic evil energies.

If you are in other D&D settings, the rules are different because what Gnolls are within those settings is fundamentally different. And thus, if one asks if it sucks they refused to make a stat block for Gnolls in Volo's Guide?... Eh, kind of. The stat blocks in the book are so crappily made, poorly balanced and generally crap that I don't recommend anyone use them. Someone who actually cared about the subject could have done a better job in a week than the so-called "professional game designers" did in the 3 months they worked on the damn thing.

Hobgoblins that are literally the crappiest possible race to choose for any class (particularly the ones they are stated most often being) except Wizard vs. Bugbear that gets increased damage on all weapons, free sneak attack and powerful stat boosts.

Be glad they didn't print an official stat block for Gnolls because then you would be stuck with an official one that you are required to use if you want to play the race that is so absolute garbage and sets you back an entire level compared to the rest of the party so-- naturally you wouldn't want to use it.

 

[OniDaimyo]

I just used some Wiki Gnoll version and its not that great but I'm not playing them to be OP, more for fun. I modified it BARELY. I think it was total bs they didn't at least get Proficiency in Intimidation. Its a GNOLL for god's sake. Even the good ones are still scary and aggressive.