Non-Lethal Damage Rules

[Tellerve]

Ah, Charles isn't the tank commander...good catch.

As for the knife example, I think your right as you have to be quite skilled to not harm yourself while disarming/parrying/attacking someone with a knife or other weapon. However, it is possible, which is what those feats allow. I would agree that someone who just "brawled" wouldn't have that skill, but also the way they portray it...being a precursor for streetfighting I would almost say it is built it to fight that way. IE; knife fights in the backalleys etc.

Eh, I'm just not satisfied, obviously, with the unarmed combat. I might try out Blood and Fist or whatever the name of that suppliment is to see if it cleans it up.

Tellerve

 

[takyris]

Having an ordinary person provoke an AoO while attacking unarmed doesn't bother me. Having CMA bypass this also doesn't bother me. If a martial artist wants to hit somebody without getting stabbed, said martial artist usually feints for a punch and then kicks the dude in the knee -- a kick has more reach than a hand holding a knife, and even if the opponent does slash down, it's likely to get deflected by the (usually heavier) clothing or shoe that the martial artist is wearing. Not perfect by any stretch -- no matter how much Kenpo I learn, I'll always want to be the guy WITH the knife instead of the guy WITHOUT it -- but still a ton better than without training.

 

[Tellerve]

Something my sifu of wing chun showed me, your kick really doesn't have more reach. Stand up and put your leg straight out, then your arm, both parallel to the floor. Assuming you aren't terrible misproportioned they should be the same. This was during a point he was making how wing chun doesn't kick above the waist. Saying that it is easier to hit with your fist as it is already up above your waist. And by the same token not to hit someone's knee with your fist but to kick it. Ok, a bit random, but when he showed me I was like, "huh". Oh, and please, I'm not trying to start a vs. martial art war, as I've trained in Tae Kwon Do so I know all about some high kicking and not saying it is bad in any way.

Ok, so, back to the topic. Basically it just goes back to me not liking the brawl. What I don't like is the higher damage and the +1 to hit. I understand that it is non-lethal and provokes an AoO from some people. But it still irks me it does so much more damage. I think that people can take feats and get to be huge brawlers, but to be a martial artist and do lots of damage you have to take the advanced class martial artist. I guess that's another of my gripes. It might be one that can't be fixed easily though.

Tellerve

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Something my sifu of wing chun showed me, your kick really doesn't have more reach. Stand up and put your leg straight out, then your arm, both parallel to the floor. Assuming you aren't terrible misproportioned they should be the same. This was during a point he was making how wing chun doesn't kick above the waist. Saying that it is easier to hit with your fist as it is already up above your waist. And by the same token not to hit someone's knee with your fist but to kick it. Ok, a bit random, but when he showed me I was like, "huh". Oh, and please, I'm not trying to start a vs. martial art war, as I've trained in Tae Kwon Do so I know all about some high kicking and not saying it is bad in any way.

Ok, so, back to the topic. Basically it just goes back to me not liking the brawl. What I don't like is the higher damage and the +1 to hit. I understand that it is non-lethal and provokes an AoO from some people. But it still irks me it does so much more damage. I think that people can take feats and get to be huge brawlers, but to be a martial artist and do lots of damage you have to take the advanced class martial artist. I guess that's another of my gripes. It might be one that can't be fixed easily though.

Tellerve

In a certain way, nonlethal damage is something completely different than lethal damage, at least if you don`t use house rules.
A melee weapon hit dealing 1d6 lethal damage is more dangerous than a melee weapon hit that deals 1d6 nonlethal damage. The first hit will slowly bring you down if repeated and could even kill you (or bring you near death), the second has no chance to do that, he will, at best, only knock you out.
So, maybe it is a mistake to compare weapons that deal nonlethal damage with weapons that deal lethal damage just by the size and number of dice you roll.
Maybe the base unarmed nonlethal damage should be not 1d3, but 1d6 (everybody has a chance to knock someone out), and if you make it lethal, the damage is reduced to 1d3/1d4, because it is a completely other type of effect you will cause then.

Well, this is the mistake (if we want to see it as one) that we might do when looking at these rules. But maybe it is a mistake by the designers (if you do allow for this) to make such distinctions, because they make a system less smooth.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[takyris]

Tellerve, that's partially true, but that wasn't the way I meant it. You'll note that I said "kick the opponent in the KNEE". My martial art rarely kicks above the waist either. If we kick the guy in the head, it's only because we've kicked him in the groin first to get him to bring his head down.

And if you're doing something like a low side kick, you can certainly reach a bit farther than you could with your arm. Also, your opponent's leg is going to be closer most times -- the leading leg will be one of the closest parts of the opponent's body except when he's moving in (at which point he'll be leaning forward).

Most people's legs are slightly longer than their arms, but the real extra reach you get is when you put your hip behind your kick. Sorry for overgeneralizing.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

And if you're doing something like a low side kick, you can certainly reach a bit farther than you could with your arm. Also, your opponent's leg is going to be closer most times -- the leading leg will be one of the closest parts of the opponent's body except when he's moving in (at which point he'll be leaning forward).

Against some random mook, sure. But against a knife fighter, the knife will always be closer. It's not much good otherwise.

And Mustrum Ridcully has a really good point. I think that the biggest problem here is that street fighting comes after "Vulcan neck pinch" in the feat chain. Well, that and fists should default to lethal damage. I think takyris established pretty well that non-lethal damage is a highly specialized manuver, not the norm.

 

[Tellerve]

Yep, all good points. And sadly I don't think we are any closer to figuring a solution...if one really needs one.

Thoughtbubble-

As for the knife fighter...I dunno. Sometimes the knife would be out in front but I can/have seen a lot where the knife isn't full extended and is held back to lash out with a thrust. Same reason people keep their fists in and then lash out. Yes you could keep the knife out far and wave it around, but really, I don't think you'd be considered skilled by doing that. I know I'd personally rather have you have it fully extended as it would have more surface arm area to block up against and prevent the side swipe of the knife. Of course, if someone pulled a knife on me my first instinct would be to run

Tellerve

 

[takyris]

Well, yeah, if you're fully extended, or even mostly extended, I've got a much more accurate sense of your range. I can stay out of range more easily, I know when you're gonna strike because you have to pull back to do so, and as soon as you pull back, I can kick you. Or, if I'm really confident, I can parry the knife-thrust, break the wrist, take the knife away, and then show what a skilled person does with a knife.

As for the knife not being much good otherwise... my punches very rarely pierce somebody's heart or important veins and arteries. I mean, it has to be a REALLY good punch to do that. So I'd still rather have a knife than not.

For reach, the knife adds a little -- well, it adds between six and ten inches, depending on how long your knife-blade is (like, say, six to ten inches). Not negligible in a hands-only fight, but in a fight with hands and feet, that's not huge -- nothing compared to the fact that you've got an edged weapon. For reach, you start to want things like sticks -- if you can kick somebody, you might not be able to punch them reachwise, but you can always hit 'em with a 26" stick.

Obvious oversimplification, but basically, usually, true.

 

[davidgeisbush]

Ok first off I just wanna say how this struck me as kinda funny considering your "brawler" build is pretty much a "best-case" for knocking people out. One of the things Psion has been saying is that he wants more normal people to be able to knock people out. Although as someone noted it was possible with a 1d3+2 crit for max damage to force a knock out.

Some more generalized concerns/gripes/thoughts I have on the non-lethal. You mentioned that it is really easy to make the Fort DC 20 saves to resist loosing hitpoints when your at -1. Then wouldn't that fort dc 15 to resist getting knocked out be just really easy?
Tellerve

So I'm thinking there was a pretty good system someone pointed out really early in this thread and no one really addressed it. I tried it in my game and like it, so it's a rule we're planning to follow until some other genius thinks up a better solution.

*Non-lethal Combat. Every non-lethal hit requires a Fort save DC = “damage” rolled. The damage is not recorded and does not carry over to other rounds.

This rule enables heroes who specialize in non-lethal combat to continue to lay the smack down appropriately and still let other heroes play. It also makes it pretty hard to knock someone out unless you can get a critical hit, use something like brawl, knockout punch, or power attack.

 

[Tellerve]

Hmm, well the problem could come up that cma would then even moreso get overshadowed by a brawler. Since the brawlers damage goes up fairly high with just two feats he could have a good chance of knocking out an opponent, and then effectively killing him if need be more easily than a combat martial artist.

Now, of course if the two were fighting the cma would get to try and hit the brawler beforehand but with 2 feats along the cma tree he'd still just be doing 1d4 lethal or nonlethal with his attack. That is a pretty paltry fort save, whereas the brawler would have a +2 to hit and 1d8. Almost double the damage and chance for a knockout that way. *shrugs* This was/is probably obvious to everyone but I felt some reason to write it. Maybe in a test for these boards to see if they'd eat the post likey they seem to be doing lately.

I think a way for me to eventually let this settle would be to have the knockout and streetwise feats apply to the cma tree as well. That way a person could do a "judo chop!" and knockout a thug as easily as the brawler.

Takyris

I'd be interested to see what you think of the vp/wp converstion. I'm away from all my books and don't have my mind fully into number crunching and mechanic tweaking.

Tellerve