Non-random D&D Miniatures

[Kae'Yoss]

I've still yet to see any convincing argument that "the market" won't support sales on non-random mini packs...all the arguments against seem to be based on a large number of preconceptions...

Fine, I'll admit it already: They could do it, an orc warrior would cost 25 cents. They only do the random packs to piss you off.

 

[Korgoth]

I've still yet to see any convincing argument that "the market" won't support sales on non-random mini packs...all the arguments against seem to be based on a large number of preconceptions...

I have a number of questions about the whole issue:

1. Would non-random 'common' minis (perhaps with no or subpar wargame stats) really eat into WOTC's DDM margins?

2. Are people who spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on random minis just to get enough trolls (and who may still not have enough) just dreading the notion that their expenditures were premature or unnecessary?

3. Are there really so few people who would buy non-random packs that it would be worthless to make them?

I don't intend to buy DDM because I don't want to buy something sight-unseen, and spend all that money on something I may not even want. I need to see the merchandise up front. I don't mind that I'll never get the Extraspecial Super Ultra Rare Gold Foil Half-Drizzt Mind Flogger... if I'm going to use minis I just want the standard D&D "usual suspects" at a cheap price. And I'm more than glad to leave the benefit of the souped-up DDM stats to the random buyers. Even though I don't play 3E anymore I'd probably buy the non-randoms.

 

[Troll Wizard]

Here we come to how I think these can be provided to me as I need them. First, stamp the minis to be purchased with something like "NOT FOR USE WITH DDM" such that the exact same sculpts and whatever can be used and re-used but for DDM formal play they are USELESS. Second, cut out the middle-men. If these miniatures are available direct from a factory, or WotC warehouse facility then the entire question of what the distrubutors and retailers can or will accomodate is moot. It's a harsh reality but it sure seems to be a sticking point. In this day and age there is no sensible business reason to keep them in the loop. Not when they are such a stumbling block to finding a new/better means of profitability and are so easily avoided. A web page can be easily set up to provide clear, rotating views of every miniature. Hell, they do that now with the galleries for the DDM sets. I then place the order for what I need and WotC packs them up and ships them DIRECT to me. Not to a distrubutor who then ships to dozens of retailers. And altogether avoiding an AFTERMARKET influence on pricing and availability.

Obviously, the more minis I order at any one time the less I pay for shipping costs on any given mini. Just as obviously, with direct shipping from the manufacturer much more of the retail price is kept by the manufacturer. Perhaps even enough to LOWER the price of the minis a bit. The minis to be made available this way can then be chosen in whatever fashion WotC cares to use in order to ensure consistent sales.

Hell, they could put up a "wishlist" web page to ensure a minimum of sales. They choose a mini they think will sell and put it up on the page. Everyone who likes it and anticipates buying it adds their email address to a list for that mini. Once enough people have signed up to potentially buy it the mini is formally added to the list of directly available minis and an email is sent to all those who singed up enabling them to immediately purchase it or add it to their next order. Meanwhile, the regular DDM market and aftermarket goes about its business with the possible advantage that it is now LESS influenced in its pricing by interference from RPG interests.

Can someone tell me why, given perhaps some relatively minor changes in details, this wouldn't work?

I certainly see this as the best way to get that Gelatinous Cube I still want.

Get rid of the distributors? Then the whole shipping, warehousing, selling, billing, and collections falls on WOTC directly (that's a lot of overhead they don’t have right now), so you won't really save anything but perhaps the percentage that the distributor and retailers took as profit. Also I am pretty certain that a major price determinant for WOTC’s minis is the discount they receive from the factory for their large production runs..

Let me give you an example, back ~2002 for an electronics show we needed a plastic/foam 3D detailed model of a product (6"x6"x6") my company designed. Not including engineering, artist, Autocad time, mockups, etc. time and money; if we bought 500 units it cost $9.75 each (2 colors only to save on cost); if we bought $1000 it cost $9.50; and if we bought 5000 $8.75 each, etc. Of course there even more costs later, as this does not even cover the $400 it cost to ship it here and then the cost within the US to move and store them around until we eventually got rid of them.

Produce-on-the-demand, is not really viable in my opinion, the costs per unit would be very high. You might be thinking about a company like protomold that makes custom plastic parts over a few business days, but the last time I checked they were still doing only single color plastics only. Then the quick startup costs were like $2K - $3k per model!

What will happen is that pricing will be all over the place, even if the minis size is the same. Small production runs of minis will have significantly higher costs than large production runs minis. Eventually only the most popular models would be produced. As it wouldn't take long for WOTC's warehouse to overfill with minis that sell slowing or not all because of the high retail price. (I have seen this already in gaming shops with old Reaper & Ral Partha minis on the shelves for years....). Oh I am sure that eventually WOTC would reduce the price of the non-selling ones to get rid of them in their warehouse, but they would not reproduce those models; as obviously the costs would exceed the price people are willing to pay for them.

Another thing to consider is that impulse and bulk sales would also disappear. Many in my group buy them by the case. I know other people that when they go to Borders or B&N and see DDM boxes on the shelf they buy one or two. Not only will WOTC lose exposure for their products across the whole retail level, but will lose all the sales (impulse or otherwise) across the whole retail market as well. Sales will be significantly smaller on website-only business approach. Putting further pressure to make production runs even smaller, as only the people that go online to purchase would ever see it.

The wish list would likely not work as well, too many opinions among us gamers. given mini x (race, class, weapons, gender, pose, and other details), player A will only buy if it has y weapon, player B will only buy if it is a female with z weapon, etc. Here is the price of a limited run plastic multi-color mini (size large I believe) http://paizo.com/store/paizoExclusives/v5748btpy7pol&source=top $14.95. Outside dragon/dungeon subscribes, who can purchase it for $9.99; I wonder how many Paizo has sold at $14.95?

So how much are you willing to spend on your Gelatinous Cube? (14.95?)

Right now WOTC price is $14.95 for 8 minis, which comes out to be about 1.86 per mini. Right now you can go to Reaper and purchase medium size individual minis (unpainted) for $3.99.

You know WOTC been producing DDM for what, about 3 years now? And many, many people have complained and asked that WOTC produce non-random mini sets. It really surprises me that a 3rd party gaming company has not jumped in to fill the void. Obviously Reaper can't or is not willing to give people what they want, pre-painted cheap minis. If the potential for a good business model is there, why hasn't a third party entered the market to fill the void?

 

[MerricB]

The wish list would likely not work as well, too many opinions among us gamers. given mini x (race, class, weapons, gender, pose, and other details), player A will only buy if it has y weapon, player B will only buy if it is a female with z weapon, etc. Here is the price of a limited run plastic multi-color mini (size large I believe) http://paizo.com/store/paizoExclusives/v5748btpy7pol&source=top $14.95. Outside dragon/dungeon subscribes, who can purchase it for $9.99; I wonder how many Paizo has sold at $14.95?

It's Huge, and was created by Wizards for Paizo (the regular version is in War of the Dragon Queen). However, Paizo has not been able to sell the 5,000 of them they started selling about a year ago.

Cheers!

 

[Glyfair]

I've still yet to see any convincing argument that "the market" won't support sales on non-random mini packs...all the arguments against seem to be based on a large number of preconceptions...

They will, but you are probably asking for more than that. Clearly the market supports non-random miniature packs because companies are successful with them (Reaper, Games Workshop). However, most here are looking for more than that. They want non-random prepainted, plastic miniatures from WotC of D&D monsters. The combination is the issue.

What's the problem with prepainted? Clearly they add to the price significantly. Good non-random prepainted miniatures have been attempted, but haven't last any length of time at an affordable level with a decent selection. Go on eBay and get a decent painted miniature and it costs you at least $15 and up to $80 for very high quality 28mm figures. Mass production allows this to work.

What's the problem with plastic? Plastic miniatures have huge set up costs compared to metal miniatures. Metal just requires an inexpensive rubber mold typically. Plastic requires very expensive molds (an industry person quoted a price of about $100,000 per mold, but his experience was in the 80s - and that's per piece that goes into a miniature and often they have multiple parts). That expense is spread out among a lot of miniatures with DDM.

What's the problem with D&D Monsters? Many of the D&D monsters are of limited use. Sure some DMs might get a lot of use of the kolyarut, but most won't use it ever and those that do will use it for a short period and never touch it again. They can't justify putting that in a pack, so that sort of miniature won't get made.

What's the problem with WotC doing them? They don't want to cannibalize their DDM which works so well because of the synergies in the system. If they create packs of common miniatures they might lose that part of the market that buys DDM for the comparatively cheap commons. Don't kid yourself, the very cheap common miniature prices on the secondary market are so low because the rare prices are so high. A non-random set would be more expensive than that per figure, which will hurt the sales of the non-random packs (why should I buy 10 non-random packaged orcs for $20 when I can get 20 DDM orcs from the secondary market for about $15 with Shipping and Handling?)

 

[Thurbane]

They will, but you are probably asking for more than that. Clearly the market supports non-random miniature packs because companies are successful with them (Reaper, Games Workshop). However, most here are looking for more than that. They want non-random prepainted, plastic miniatures from WotC of D&D monsters. The combination is the issue.

Well speaking only for myself then, I'd be happy if another company stepped in and made prepainted, "generic fantasy" minis to the now standard 1:60 scale. I honestly would not care if they were a little more pricey than a D&D booster pack, because knowing what I get beforehand would mean I didn't end up with tubs of minis I will never use...

If Bonko Games (TM) was making a pack of 8 (non-random) orcs, and selling them for 150% or so (or even more) of what a D&D booster pack costs, I'd go out and buy them in a second.

...but as I said, this is just speaking for myself.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well speaking only for myself then, I'd be happy if another company stepped in and made prepainted, "generic fantasy" minis to the now standard 1:60 scale.

That's the point: It probably won't happen. If it were feasible, there would be more products like that around. Wizards themselves might have done them. They didn't. No one else does (okay, there are/were some products like that, but those never hold very long, and don't offer nearly as good a range of minis as DDM).

 

[Thurbane]

That's the point: It probably won't happen. If it were feasible, there would be more products like that around. Wizards themselves might have done them. They didn't. No one else does (okay, there are/were some products like that, but those never hold very long, and don't offer nearly as good a range of minis as DDM).

Sorry, I simply do not buy "if it was feasible we'd have already seen it" argument...by that logic, every product that is viable has already been marketed...

As for range, I personally don't care if there was only 10% of the range available compared to DDM, so long as they were what are generally accepted as common use monsters and characters.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Sorry, I simply do not buy "if it was feasible we'd have already seen it" argument...by that logic, every product that is viable has already been marketed...

No, because not every product has been thought of already, or demanded.

This one has. People thought about non-random minis. People keep asking for them.

Now, it may be only silly me, but I am somehow convinced that almost every product that is in demand and that can be produced and generate sufficient profit is on the market.

All this makes me believe that they wouldn't be feasible for Wizards, or any third party.

As for range, I personally don't care if there was only 10% of the range available compared to DDM, so long as they were what are generally accepted as common use monsters and characters.

And I personally don't care that you don't want boosters with random content, as long as I can get a wide variety of reasonably priced miniatures.

 

[Zaukrie]

A company did try just that - I think the orc pack was $15 for 6 orcs, pre-painted. The line bombed, and you can occassionally find them in the close out bins at various gaming stores.