D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Chaosmancer]

To me it is pretty clear what the intent is and the intent is for it to apply to the spells you received from the subclass. When they use those phrases on page 97 and at the top of page 98 it is clear they are talking only and specifically about the spells gained through EK. Those areas (under cantrips and Changing Tour prepared spells respectively) CAN'T refer to any other spells and absolutely do not refer to spells received from another class. If those phrases in these two sections do not "change meaning" then they would still refer to the spells received from the subclass later under War Magic and Improved War Magic on page 98.

The mentions of Wizard spells on page 97 are EXCLUSIVELY using the phrase "Wizard Spell List". There is not a single part of that text that uses the phrase "wizard spell". The only mention of a "wizard cantrip" is following the text on learning cantrips from the Wizard Spell List, and is for the level 10 spot where you learn a new "wizard cantrip". To have that mean "Fighter Cantrip" instead, would mean that the level 10 cantrip ability is allowing you to learn a cantrip you received from the class... which you would already know. So it cannot possibly mean that, and it must mean "a cantrip from the wizard spell list"

And the same logic must apply here to the top of 98 where you change your prepared spells. The phrase "with another Wizard spell for which you have spell slots" must absolutely be referring to "a spell on the wizard spell list". If it meant "a wizard spell you gained via this subclass" like you keep saying then you could only swap spells to... spells you already know... which does nothing.

So, the only argument you could possibly be making here is that War Magic and Improved War Magic don't work with cleric/druid/warlock/bard spells/cantrips. Which... fine, but then we run into the Innate sorcerery problem.

What you wrote that I bolded in red above would also support this interpretation. If it is written to assume that you do not have any other spells except subclass spells then that also means by definition they did not "intend" it to apply to spells from other classes when they wrote it. They "intended" it to apply to the spells you received from EK.

No, that is not a good assumption. Because the phrasing used on learning spells is generally identical across all classes. That would mean that they never intended something like Wall of Force to be used with Quicken Spell... but obviously that is intended because of how the sorcerer class functions.

RAW Initiate Sorcery clearly only works on Sorcerer spells and the multiclass Sorcerers I have seen played in 2024 do not get to use that feature on species spells, feat spells or spells from other classes. If you let it work on all spells (or even on all spells on the Sorc list) then the optimal caster would all have a level of Sorcerer.

Eldritch Knight wording is a bit more ambiguous RAW, but I don't think it is ambiguous RAI. If the "intent" is to allow spells and cantrips from other classes then you are saying that it is intended that a multiclass 17th level Warlock-Eldrtich Knight should be able to let loose with 4 Eldritch Blasts followed by up to 4 more attacks at high level, without action surging and adding 8x Hex damage and 4xCharisma damage. I do not think that is "intended".

I think you are taking a far too limited read on this, and trying to put forth a very narrow potential based solely on them clarifying that the Fighter is using Wizard spells and not Fighter spells (which don't exist) and that they did not write "a spell from the wizard spell list" when talking about changing your prepared spells. Which would have been needlessly wordy. And also still does nothing to prevent wizard spells gained from feats to function normally, because they are still wizard spells and that must mean "spells from the wizard class list"

 

[Chaosmancer]

RAW Innate Sorcery doesn't work on those examples.



Contrast that to the language Metamagic uses.



Innate Sorcery does specify your sorcerer spells while Metamagic can be applied to any spell the sorcerer casts. Any DM or player who does otherwise either doesn't know the RAW or is choosing to ignore it.

I know what it says, I am merely pointing out that every single example I've ever seen has had people who analyze Innate Sorcerery as applying it to all the spells the sorcerer has. They have never limited it by removing spells that they received through feats or racial abilities. I think that is an overly strict reading, and eventually causes problems.

For example, read the text on the Sorcerer Subclass spells.

• When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Clockwork Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
• When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Psionic Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
• When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Draconic Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.

So, by your reading, an Aberrant Soul Sorcerer, using innate sorcerery, can't boost their subclass spells, because those spells are not sorcerer spells, and nothing says "these count as sorcerer spells for you" like with the Bard ability.

I do not believe that is the intent.

 

[mellored]

I've never seen anyone saying that a Sorcerer who dips warlock cannot use Innate Sorcerery on Eldritch Blast,

You cannot use Innate Sorcery on Eldritch Blast.

I mean, it's your game, do what you want. You can ignore the Action Surge restrictions on Magic Actions too, and cast it multiple times.

But the restriction are there in the book.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

You cannot use Innate Sorcery on Eldritch Blast.

I mean, it's your game, do what you want. You can ignore the Action Surge restrictions on Magic Actions too, and cast it multiple times.

But the restriction are there in the book.

Yeah, what’s a “Magic Action”? Because action surge says no Magic actions. Is that casting a spell? What about a smite?

So you can’t use your first action to attack and then use your second to misty step away to escape?

Edit: just found it. A magic anction is only spells that take one action. So bonus action spells are okay with action surge.

 

[mellored]

Yeah, what’s a “Magic Action”? Because action surge says no Magic actions. Is that casting a spell? What about a smite?

Some other things are explicitly "Magic Actions" as well, like light cleric's Channel Divinity and wands.

Edit: just found it. A magic anction is only spells that take one action. So bonus action spells are okay with action surge.

Action surge doesn't affect your bonus action at all. Or your regular action.

So you can cast Eldritch Blast, bonus action misty step, and use action surge to take the Attack Action.

 

[Ashrym]

I know what it says, I am merely pointing out that every single example I've ever seen has had people who analyze Innate Sorcerery as applying it to all the spells the sorcerer has. They have never limited it by removing spells that they received through feats or racial abilities. I think that is an overly strict reading, and eventually causes problems.

For example, read the text on the Sorcerer Subclass spells.

• When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Clockwork Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
• When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Psionic Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
• When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Draconic Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.

So, by your reading, an Aberrant Soul Sorcerer, using innate sorcerery, can't boost their subclass spells, because those spells are not sorcerer spells, and nothing says "these count as sorcerer spells for you" like with the Bard ability.

I do not believe that is the intent.

You're missing this part of spellcasting under sorcerer:

If another Sorcerer feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Sorcerer spells for you.

Subclass spells count as sorcerer spells. This is the same language used for bards, clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards. Seems intentional. ;-)

 

[Zardnaar]

You're missing this part of spellcasting under sorcerer:



Subclass spells count as sorcerer spells. This is the same language used for bards, clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards. Seems intentional. ;-)

But not magic initiate spells?

Eg Potent cantrip+green flame blade via magic initiate?

 

[Ashrym]

But not magic initiate spells?

Eg Potent cantrip+green flame blade via magic initiate?

Nope. Magic Initiate doesn't give sorcerers spells prepared from a class feature so Innate Sorcery wouldn't apply to spells from it.

It seems to stem from additional restrictions on spellcasters, primarily related to multiclassing, based on negative feedback from popular splash builds. It's clear that several abilities apply to "class spells" and how it's repeated in so many classes implies it's deliberate, but one of the side effects is fiddly spell tracking.

Edit: In your example, green-flame blade learned from magic initiate would not qualify as a "class spell" learned through a class feature.

Level 3: Potent Cantrip​

Your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When you cast a cantrip at a creature and you miss with the attack roll or the target succeeds on a saving throw against the cantrip, the target takes half the cantrip’s damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.

Potent cantrip isn't restricted to "class spells", though. A person needs to check the wording on abilities. Some of them are "your (class) spells", some of them are a class spell list, and some of them just use general spells. Fiddly.

 

[Zardnaar]

Nope. Magic Initiate doesn't give sorcerers spells prepared from a class feature so Innate Sorcery wouldn't apply to spells from it.

It seems to stem from additional restrictions on spellcasters, primarily related to multiclassing, based on negative feedback from popular splash builds. It's clear that several abilities apply to "class spells" and how it's repeated in so many classes implies it's deliberate, but one of the side effects is fiddly spell tracking.

Edit: In your example, green-flame blade learned from magic initiate would not qualify as a "class spell" learned through a class feature.



Potent cantrip isn't restricted to "class spells", though. A person needs to check the wording on abilities. Some of them are "your (class) spells", some of them are a class spell list, and some of them just use general spells. Fiddly.

I figured that.

It's why I rated arcane cleric highly. They do get those spells as cleric spells.

Shillelagh via magic initiate they were better at smackdown than war clerics.

 

[Ashrym]

I figured that.

It's why I rated arcane cleric highly. They do get those spells as cleric spells.

Shillelagh via magic initiate they were better at smackdown than war clerics.

Did you mean Potent Spellcasting instead of Potent Cantrip?

Potent Spellcasting. Add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any Cleric cantrip.

That is restricted to cleric cantrips. I gave Potent Cantrip from the Evoker subclass.

Yeah, updating the arcana cleric to 2024 rules would treat wizard cantrips added through Arcane Initiate as cleric spells.