D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[mellored]

To quantify "good" - against foes lacking means to see through magical darkness,

Fog Cloud is better than Darkness. It's a spell level lower, blocks more things, and scales to larger size. Unless your with a shadow monk or warlock.

Most other melee can get blind fighting too, or just dip fighter 1.

Sorcerer's can drop Acid Splash and careful fireballs (evocation wizard requires sight).

Moon druid can probably pick something with tremorsense or blindsight, as well as cast Fog the first few levels.

Light cleric's Channel Divinity as well as Spiritual Guardians will do just fine as well. Healing Word is still usable when you drop you drop, as the fog does too. The loss of their cantrip damage will be more than made up for by the EK's advantage.

Also, dwarf's have tremorsense.

 

[mellored]

What you quoted was a reply. The post I replied to gave 5 examples only one of which even used Intelligence.

Of the 5 examples in the post I replied to; none of them involve using the 10th, 15th or 18th level EK features at all. Only two of the five would use the 7th level feature and one of those two would use it very sparingly.

Hence my comment that that play style does not get mileage out of much of the subclass features.

Those where not neccicaraly mutually exclusive.

But if you want an example on how to use all of them at once...

Bonus action summon your weapon (3)
Attack Action Longbow slow + cast blind with disadvantage, (3, 10, 18)
action surge teleport away (15)
Ray of frost with advantage (7) + longbow push with advantage (x2).

They are now slowed 20', pushed 20', 30' further away, and blind (If everything lands).

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think that is the intent given the context it is used. If you read the section begining to end in context I think it is clear that it is intended to mean the spells you get from EK. The terms "Wizard cantirp" and "Wizard spell" are used several places inside the Eldritch Knight subclass description and most of the time they only can refer specifically to the spells you get from the subclass.

To accept a different interpretation you would need to accept that the terms "Wizard cantrip" and "Wizard spell" change meaning in different places in the section.

As I mentioned in the beginning of this thread the wording is poor, and they really should have used the term "Fighter cantrip" or something like that.

This claim bothered me, so I decided to re-read the Eldritch Knight from beginning to end, to get this context.

Spoiler: Spellcasting level 3

Level 3: Spellcasting
You have learned to cast spells. See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules as an Eldritch Knight.

Cantrips. You know two cantrips of your choice from the Wizard spell list (see that class's section for its list). Ray of Frost and Shocking Grasp are recommended. Whenever you gain a Fighter level, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip of your choice from the Wizard spell list.
When you reach Fighter level 10, you learn another Wizard cantrip of your choice.

Spell Slots. The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your level 1+ spells. You regain all expended slots when you finish a Long Rest.

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. To start, choose three level 1 spells from the Wizard spell list. Burning Hands, Jump, and Shield are recommended.

The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Fighter levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional spells from the Wizard spell list until the number of spells on your list matches the number on the table. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For example, if you're a level 7 Fighter, your list of prepared spells can include five Wizard spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination.

Changing your Prepared Spells. Whenever you gain a Fighter level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Wizard spell for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your Wizard spells.

Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.

Spoiler: War Magic level 7

Level 7: War Magic
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.

Spoiler: Improved War Magic level 17

Level 18: Improved War Magic
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action.

These are the only abilities for the EK that use the phrase "wizard spell" or "wizard cantrip". Except, that isn't the phrase, because to be clear it says "your Wizard cantrip" or "your Wizard spell". And I think I know what is going on here.

It says your wizard spells or your wizard cantrips, because as a Fighter you don't get spells or cantrips. If you read the Arcane Trickster level 3 ability, it is worded identically to the Eldritch Knight ability. Now yes, the Valor bard says "your cantrip"... because you are a Bard, your class gave you cantrips. Unlike the Fighter, which needed to get Wizard cantrips.

And, at no point do you need to change the meaning of the phrase for by thinking of it as "your cantrips" or "your spells", because the subclass was simply written in such a way as to assume that you do not have any other spells other than those granted by the subclass, which are all wizard spells. For example, you could look to the Sorcerer. Innate sorcerery specifies "sorcerer spells" but I do not believe anyone would blink an eye at a Draw Sorcerer gaining the benefit of Innate sorcerery on their Faerie Fire, especially since I've never seen anyone saying that a Sorcerer who dips warlock cannot use Innate Sorcerery on Eldritch Blast, despite it not being a sorcerer spell.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Fog Cloud is better than Darkness

Is there a good way to enable the PCs to see though the fog cloud? I find both these spells often hinder the PCs as much as the monsters.

 

[ECMO3]

And, at no point do you need to change the meaning of the phrase for by thinking of it as "your cantrips" or "your spells", because the subclass was simply written in such a way as to assume that you do not have any other spells other than those granted by the subclass, which are all wizard spells. For example, you could look to the Sorcerer. Innate sorcerery specifies "sorcerer spells" but I do not believe anyone would blink an eye at a Draw Sorcerer gaining the benefit of Innate sorcerery on their Faerie Fire, especially since I've never seen anyone saying that a Sorcerer who dips warlock cannot use Innate Sorcerery on Eldritch Blast, despite it not being a sorcerer spell.

To me it is pretty clear what the intent is and the intent is for it to apply to the spells you received from the subclass. When they use those phrases on page 97 and at the top of page 98 it is clear they are talking only and specifically about the spells gained through EK. Those areas (under cantrips and Changing Tour prepared spells respectively) CAN'T refer to any other spells and absolutely do not refer to spells received from another class. If those phrases in these two sections do not "change meaning" then they would still refer to the spells received from the subclass later under War Magic and Improved War Magic on page 98.

What you wrote that I bolded in red above would also support this interpretation. If it is written to assume that you do not have any other spells except subclass spells then that also means by definition they did not "intend" it to apply to spells from other classes when they wrote it. They "intended" it to apply to the spells you received from EK.

RAW Initiate Sorcery clearly only works on Sorcerer spells and the multiclass Sorcerers I have seen played in 2024 do not get to use that feature on species spells, feat spells or spells from other classes. If you let it work on all spells (or even on all spells on the Sorc list) then the optimal caster would all have a level of Sorcerer.

Eldritch Knight wording is a bit more ambiguous RAW, but I don't think it is ambiguous RAI. If the "intent" is to allow spells and cantrips from other classes then you are saying that it is intended that a multiclass 17th level Warlock-Eldrtich Knight should be able to let loose with 4 Eldritch Blasts followed by up to 4 more attacks at high level, without action surging and adding 8x Hex damage and 4xCharisma damage. I do not think that is "intended".

 

[mellored]

Is there a good way to enable the PCs to see though the fog cloud? I find both these spells often hinder the PCs as much as the monsters.

I just listed some options.

Mainly blind fighting style and using AoEs. You would want to talk to your group before hand though.

But also, you can just put it on yourself and use a bow.

 

[ECMO3]

One of my groups use both Darkness and Fog Cloud extensively (but not on the same character). Most of the time we use it, it is to screw up enemy casters and make it more difficult for them to target specific PCs or areas. Darkness can also be used to dispel of some other spells including faerie fire, flaming sphere, flame blade, moonbeam etc

Darkness is objectively a more powerful spell because you can cast it on an object (usually a stone) and effectively turn it on and off and because you can use it to dispel other spells.

Fog Cloud is a better bargain because it is a lower level slot to cast.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

So, interestingly, all of the recommended spells in the spell description section are V,S and can’t be used with a weapon and shield.

Jump can be used if you have a staff arcane focus because it also has an M

So, by that advice the designers are recommending not using shields. At least not while holding a weapon. Clearly, the intent is to be holding a weapon since you have the bonded weapon. And if you drop or sheath a weapon, you lose your AoO. One of the nice features of playing a fighter is using shields. This juggling thing really is a down side. And you are then forced to take the feat to be able to use the features presented by your class.

 

[mellored]

Darkness is objectively a more powerful spell because you can cast it on an object

Fair.
But comparing 15-radius to 40' radius (at level 2). And Fog blocks Truesight, which is much more a monster thing than player thing.

Fortunately you don't need to use just one. Both work.

 

[Ashrym]

For example, you could look to the Sorcerer. Innate sorcerery specifies "sorcerer spells" but I do not believe anyone would blink an eye at a Draw Sorcerer gaining the benefit of Innate sorcerery on their Faerie Fire, especially since I've never seen anyone saying that a Sorcerer who dips warlock cannot use Innate Sorcerery on Eldritch Blast, despite it not being a sorcerer spell.

RAW Innate Sorcery doesn't work on those examples.

Level 1: Innate Sorcery​

An event in your past left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with simmering magic. As a Bonus Action, you can unleash that magic for 1 minute, during which you gain the following benefits:

• The spell save DC of your Sorcerer spells increases by 1.
• You have Advantage on the attack rolls of Sorcerer spells you cast.

You can use this feature twice, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a Long Rest.

Contrast that to the language Metamagic uses.

Level 2: Metamagic​

Because your magic flows from within, you can alter your spells to suit your needs; you gain two Metamagic options of your choice from “Metamagic Options” later in this class’s description. You use the chosen options to temporarily modify spells you cast. To use an option, you must spend the number of Sorcery Points that it costs.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it unless otherwise noted in one of those options.

Whenever you gain a Sorcerer level, you can replace one of your Metamagic options with one you don’t know. You gain two more options at Sorcerer level 10 and two more at Sorcerer level 17.

Innate Sorcery does specify your sorcerer spells while Metamagic can be applied to any spell the sorcerer casts. Any DM or player who does otherwise either doesn't know the RAW or is choosing to ignore it.