D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Zardnaar]

This wording would clear up any ambiguity RAW, but I don't think this is what they meant or they would have said it. They use the term Wizard spell list several times and did not use it in these four places, strongly implying that it is something different in those places.




I agree it is nonsense. It is clear to me when they use the term they mean Cantrip you got from the Eldritch Knight subclass.



It does exist. they are talked about a couple lines above. An cantrip you get from the Eldritch Knight feature is selected from the Wizard list and is referred to as a "Wizard Cantrip" in the rest of this section. It is crystal clear to me that this is the intended meaning even if it is not to you.



No in this section it is a Cantrip you have from the Eldritch Knight feature (which are also from the wizard list, but a subset of that full list). I agree they could have worded it better bnut it is clear to me that your interpretation is not the intended wording.

If they meant any cantrip from the Wizard list they would have said that.



I guess it theoretically can mean that, but here we are only talking about the intended meaning in the Eldritch Knight subclass.

If you have specific wording from other section I would be happy to talk about it, and what that term, if used elsewhere, means in those sections, but they are not applicable to the Eldritch Knight section.



Yes it does exist. The Eldritch Knight subclass is covered on pages 96-98 including detail on how to acquire spells and cantrips under that subclass.


You can do anything the DM allows at your table. What is clear to me though is "Wizard cantrip" as used on page 98 of the PHB is intended to apply to cantrips gained through the Eldritch Knight subclass.



My position is very consistent and yes the wording in the Eldritch Knight subclass is poor and does not apply outside the EK subclass and this was discussed on this thread some 30 pages ago.

RAW it seems quite clear. RAI I'll wait and see what the designers say.

EK 7, Bladesinger 7 and CME for the win lol.

 

[ECMO3]

Let's say I'm a high elf with Magic initiate (wizard) and I multi-class wizard and EK. Then... all my saving throws and attack rolls are tied to Intelligence.

Not necessarily true. Magic Initiate-(Wizard) can be on any ability. The Arcane Trickster multiclass I linked on the previous thread has Magic Intitate-Wizard tied to Charisma and she had it at 1st level.

And while, yes, if I decided to add cleric I could only prepare a certain number of cleric only spells... it doesn't particularly matter if I got the light cantrip from any of those sources..

Except I need to have specifically noted that the 7th level War Magic ability only works with two of my cantrips and nothing else. It is fiddly, and the ONLY place it would matter in that build

It depends on what your other Cleric cantrips are.

It would not matter if you get Light from any of those sources, but it sure does matter which source you got Toll The Dead from. If Magic Initiate is on Charisma, and your EK spells are on Intelligence and your cleric spells are on Wisdom that is three different saving throws and yes you need to know exactly which it is on and when you multiclass you have to keep track of that "fiddly" stuff or the game falls apart.

And this is not the only build, it is one of literally thousands and millions of possibilities and thousands of effective possibilities. The character I linked to the thread you replied to is currently being played (have a game tomorrow) and it has 13 different prepared 1st level spells from 5 different sources and on two different ability scores.

 

[mellored]

Were the wording "add" that'd be different.

Agonizing Blast and Celestial both say "add".

Truestrike and Shillelagh both say "instead".

 

[Zardnaar]

Agonizing Blast and Celestial both say "add".

Truestrike and Shillelagh both say "instead".

Might ve able to ressurect my melee sorcerer concept.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This wording would clear up any ambiguity RAW, but I don't think this is what they meant or they would have said it. They use the term Wizard spell list several times and did not use it in these four places, strongly implying that it is something different in those places.

You can't think of any reason why, in a massive book that was pushing the size limits they had, they might have used "wizard cantrip" instead of "a cantrip from the wizard spell list"? The only explanation you can think of, is that they must have had some obscure meaning in mind that meant something different?

I agree it is nonsense. It is clear to me when they use the term they mean Cantrip you got from the Eldritch Knight subclass.

What cantrips do you get from the Eldritch Knight subclass? Can I get Sorcerous Burst from the subclass?

No? I can only get Wizard Cantrips? But Wizard cantrip means "cantrip I get cfrom the eldritch knight subclass" according to you, so you are know saying that I get cantrips from the eldritch knight sublcass defined as the cantrips I get from the Eldritch Knight subclass which are the cantrips I get from the eldritch knight subclass.... which doesn't tell me where I get those cantrips from! So, at some point in time, wizard cantrip has to mean wizard cantrip.

It does exist. they are talked about a couple lines above. An cantrip you get from the Eldritch Knight feature is selected from the Wizard list and is referred to as a "Wizard Cantrip" in the rest of this section. It is crystal clear to me that this is the intended meaning even if it is not to you.

But that is nonsense with your reading. Because with your reading Wizard Cantrip means cantrip selected by an Eldritch knight. So when it says to select a wizard cantrip it is telling you to select a cantrip you chose as an eldritch knight, which you haven't selected yet!

No in this section it is a Cantrip you have from the Eldritch Knight feature (which are also from the wizard list, but a subset of that full list). I agree they could have worded it better bnut it is clear to me that your interpretation is not the intended wording.

If they meant any cantrip from the Wizard list they would have said that.

Again, this is nonsensical. The only way your post here makes sense is if you think it is somehow possible to cast a cantrip you don't know. Otherwise, yes, they do mean any cantrip from the wizard spell list, because that's what a wizard cantrip definitionally is.

I guess it theoretically can mean that, but here we are only talking about the intended meaning in the Eldritch Knight subclass.

If you have specific wording from other section I would be happy to talk about it, and what that term, if used elsewhere, means in those sections, but they are not applicable to the Eldritch Knight section.

Those all say Wizard Cantrip, referring to picking a cantrip from the wizard spell list. There is no such thing as a High Elf Cantrip or a MAgic Initiate Cantrip, because those terms don't make any sense.

Yes it does exist. The Eldritch Knight subclass is covered on pages 96-98 including detail on how to acquire spells and cantrips under that subclass.

Is there a list labeled "Eldritch Knight Spells"? Please give me the page number if there are. Otherwise, the spells an Eldrtich knight learns are wizard spells, from the wizard spell list, which are defined as wizard spells. Because they are from the wizard spell list.

You can do anything the DM allows at your table. What is clear to me though is "Wizard cantrip" as used on page 98 of the PHB is intended to apply to cantrips gained through the Eldritch Knight subclass.

You can't have "wizard cantrip" mean "cantrip gained through the Eldrtich Knight subclass" then insist that definition stays in the section of learning cantrips, because then you are picking a cantrip gained to gain a cantrip, which is one you already have because you can't pick from the list that isn't the list you already picked.

My position is very consistent and yes the wording in the Eldritch Knight subclass is poor and does not apply outside the EK subclass and this was discussed on this thread some 30 pages ago.

No, your position is not consistent. You want to redefine Wizard Cantrip in every single instance outside of the Wizard.

 

[mellored]

Might ve able to ressurect my melee sorcerer concept.

Makes me want to dip Devotion Paladin 3 as well.

Cha +Cha to hit for Cha+Cha+Cha+ 1d8 damage.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not necessarily true. Magic Initiate-(Wizard) can be on any ability. The Arcane Trickster multiclass I linked on the previous thread has Magic Intitate-Wizard tied to Charisma and she had it at 1st level.

Sigh

Yeah, but if I'm an Intelligence caster why would I bother to do that? That was my point. You said it was neccessary because of all these things, but I can also do the same things and NOT have a Charisma caster. So it isn't neccessary, because most people aren't going to be intentionally splitting themselves like that.

It depends on what your other Cleric cantrips are.

It would not matter if you get Light from any of those sources, but it sure does matter which source you got Toll The Dead from.

Wow, you mean if my example was different it would be different! Good golly gosh, I never considered that it might be different if it was different.

But you also admitted that it doesn't matter in the case I was presenting. Which was my point.

If Magic Initiate is on Charisma, and your EK spells are on Intelligence and your cleric spells are on Wisdom that is three different saving throws and yes you need to know exactly which it is on and when you multiclass you have to keep track of that "fiddly" stuff or the game falls apart.

And this is not the only build, it is one of literally thousands and millions of possibilities and thousands of effective possibilities. The character I linked to the thread you replied to is currently being played (have a game tomorrow) and it has 13 different prepared 1st level spells from 5 different sources and on two different ability scores.

Congrats on making a character who doesn't work like how 90% of people will make their characters. This doesn't prove anything except that you can choose to make things more complicated for yourself if you want to.

But there is no reason to assume that a person with 6 cantrips all from the wizard spell list needs to track which specific ones they gained as an Eldritch knight, because only those two are allowed to be used with War Magic. There isn't even a coherent argument for why that could be broken to allow.

 

[Zardnaar]

Makes me want to dip Devotion Paladin 3 as well.

Cha +Cha to hit for Cha+Cha+Cha+ 1d8 damage.

Can you talk me through the basic build eg classes/levels. Please

 

[ECMO3]

You can't think of any reason why, in a massive book that was pushing the size limits they had, they might have used "wizard cantrip" instead of "a cantrip from the wizard spell list"? The only explanation you can think of, is that they must have had some obscure meaning in mind that meant something different?

Yeah I think that is why they used "Wizard Cantrip" - to refer to the cantrips you get from the Eldritch Knight feature without using more wording.

What cantrips do you get from the Eldritch Knight subclass? Can I get Sorcerous Burst from the subclass?

Get whatever you want at your table, but the PHB is clear on this and I don't feel I need to repeat it dozens of times.

Read page 97 and 98 it is all there what cantrips you can choose.

No? I can only get Wizard Cantrips? But Wizard cantrip means "cantrip I get cfrom the eldritch knight subclass" according to you, so you are know saying that I get cantrips from the eldritch knight sublcass defined as the cantrips I get from the Eldritch Knight subclass which are the cantrips I get from the eldritch knight subclass..

Yes exactly. It is spelled out very clearly and in fewer and less redundant wording than you are using.

. which doesn't tell me where I get those cantrips from!

The PHB does tell you where to get them from - the Wizard spell list.

It is clear what it is intended to mean and I really think these are a bunch of strawman arguments you are throwing up one after another.

ut that is nonsense with your reading. Because with your reading Wizard Cantrip means cantrip selected by an Eldritch knight. So when it says to select a wizard cantrip it is telling you to select a cantrip you chose as an eldritch knight, which you haven't selected yet!

Yes exactly it means a Cantrip selected through your Eldritch Knight subclass. You have not chosen it before you select it. After you select it then you have chosen it and at that point it is one of the Cantrips from your Eldritch Knight subclass and a "Wizard cantrip" under the intended

Before you select it you have not selected it. Before I level up I have not leveled up. One I level up then I have leveled up.

Again, this is nonsensical.

Actually it makes perfect sense, your repeated refusal to read the PHB and continued argument is nonsensical.

Otherwise, yes, they do mean any cantrip from the wizard spell list, because that's what a wizard cantrip definitionally is.

That is not the intended meaning in the Eldritch Knight subclass WRT to how it is used on page 97 and 98.

Those all say Wizard Cantrip, referring to picking a cantrip from the wizard spell list. There is no such thing as a High Elf Cantrip or a MAgic Initiate Cantrip, because those terms don't make any sense.

No they don't . Niether the description of Magic Initiate, nor the description of High Elf use the term "Wizard Cantrip" at all as far as I know.

Before we go further, please provide a page where the Magic initiate feat says "Wizard Cantrip" or where the High Elf description says "Wizard Cantrip".

IF you won't provide a page number then please admit you were mistaken and it is untrue that "Those all say Wizard Cantrip"

Is there a list labeled "Eldritch Knight Spells"?

I don't know. Maybe it is in the same place as the part of the book that refers to the Cantrip you get from Magic Initiate as a "Wizard cantrip"!

Please give me the page number if there are.

I never said the term "Eldridge Knight spell" is in the PHB. Page 96-98 describe the Eldritch Knight subclass, including the procedures for them to get spells.

Otherwise, the spells an Eldrtich knight learns are wizard spells, from the wizard spell list, which are defined as wizard spells. Because they are from the wizard spell list.

Yes they are Wizard spells, from the Wizard spell list which are defined as Wizard spells and that term "Wizard spells" as used on pages 98 is intended to refer ONLY to those specific spells selected as part of the Eldritch Knight subclass feature and not to any other spells that are on the Wizard list.

This is crystal clear.

You can't have "wizard cantrip" mean "cantrip gained through the Eldrtich Knight subclass" then insist that definition stays in the section of learning cantrips, because then you are picking a cantrip gained to gain a cantrip, which is one you already have because you can't pick from the list that isn't the list you already picked.

Sure I can. I have said it many timesalready. I will type it here again:

Wizard cantrip in context on page 97 and 98 is intended to refer specifically to the spells gained through the Eldritch Knight subclass feature.

See I can say it lots of times .... and not only can I say it, I am right about it too!

No, your position is not consistent. You want to redefine Wizard Cantrip in every single instance outside of the Wizard.

At least I am not saying that there is verbiage in the PHB that is not there. It is one thing to disagree over what something means. It is quite another to say specific verbiage is written in the PHB when it is not and then to refuse to even retract the statement.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah, but if I'm an Intelligence caster why would I bother to do that? That was my point. You said it was neccessary because of all these things, but I can also do the same things and NOT have a Charisma caster. So it isn't neccessary, because most people aren't going to be intentionally splitting themselves like that.

My Arcane Trickster is an Intelligence caster and has MAgic Initiate-Wizard on Charisma.

Using the 2014 rules every single Eldritch Knight I played had an 8 Intelligence, except the ones that multiclassed Wizard and they had a 13 or 14 and the feat spells I got were on other abilities.

Dumping Intelligence is EXTREMELY common on an Eldrtich Knight. Treantmonk did it in his first 2024 EK.

Just because YOU personally don't do that doesn't mean no one else does and just because you don't have to keep track of that "fiddly" stuff on your PCs doesn;t mean no one else does either

But you also admitted that it doesn't matter in the case I was presenting. Which was my point.

Except a Cleric gets 3 cantrips and you only mentioned one. Further saying it does not matter in one specific build is hardly evidence it does not matter in general.

Your point is it is overly fiddly to keep track of where you got what spells from and that is not true generally in a multiclass build. In most multiclassed builds it is essential.

Congrats on making a character who doesn't work like how 90% of people will make their characters.

No most people who multiclass casters keep track of what spells are from what class. It is extremely rare to find people that don't and dumping Intelligence on an Eldritch Knight is extremely common. I would venture to say it rivals Wisdom as the most common dump stat on an Eldritch Knight.

This doesn't prove anything except that you can choose to make things more complicated for yourself if you want to.

It proves there is at least one character being played like that, unlike your hypothetical strawman Cleric-Wizard-Fighter.

I provided a real world example of a PC being played to support my point. Can you provide one to support yours? A character actually being played, that you can provide a link to, that is multiclassed with 2 different casting stats AND has the Magic Initiate Feat AND does not concern themselves with fiddling on which classes get what spells?

Actually you claim above 90% of multiclassed casters don't concern themselves with this, while offering no evidence at all to back this up. If this is true, it should be pretty easy to find 9 real multiclassed characters with different casting abilities actually being played to counterbalance the one I provided.

How many multiclassed casters are you playing right now that don't need to track which spells are from which classes? (I am playing three that do FWIW)