D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Chaosmancer]

You cannot add your charisma bonus twice. “Add your charisma bonus” is the same thing repeated, like “die your hair blue”. You have blue hair, not double blue hair.

I disagree with this. If they come from two different abilities, there is no reason to assume they can't stack. If an ability added your level to damage, like the Aasimar ability, and then added your level to damage, like the assassin ability, there would be no reason they shouldn't stack.

 

[clearstream]

Agonizing Blast does not give a choice it adds Charisma to the damage, and it adds to the damage rolled regardless of what ability score you used to cast the Cantrip (or if you even used no ability score at all).

Yes, I agree about Agonizing because the wording is "add". My above post was focused only on shillelagh plus true strike.

Agonizing would add to true strike from the warlock list, but not with shillelagh unless something made it count as a warlock spell.

One could argue RAW that true strike doesn't "deal damage" until 5th level on the grounds that it's the weapon alone that deals it until the cantrip deals extra.... I'm not drawn to that myself.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because the term "Wizard Cantrip" if it means Cantrips for all of your classes, not just Eldritch Knight then it means it here as well.

Let's take the 7th level War Magic feature and reword it:

"When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip from any source or class that appear on the Wizard spell list and has a casting time of an action."

I replaced "Wizard Cantrip" with the underlined. Now let's use that same wording in the 10th level spellcasting feature:

"When you reach Fighter level 10, you learn another cantrip from any source or class that have cantrips that appear on the Wizard spell list."

I don't think this, and I don't think the intended meaning changes (and you claimed earlier you didn't either). I think it means the same thing in both places and that is it is referencing specifically the cantrips you get through this subclass.

You might not like that, but it is my opinion and I think the intent is clear in this regard.

You added a bunch of unnecessary words.

"When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip from the Wizard spell list and has a casting time of an action."

"When you reach Fighter level 10, you learn another cantrip from the Wizard spell list."

Simple, works, and doesn't care about the source at all. Because there is no reason to say that you learn a cantrip from a source that has cantrips from the wizard spell list, that's nonsense. Now, it does require a modicum of common sense in that you can't cast a cantrip you don't know, but I believe that is covered under the word "your" in the ability. After all, it says "your" in the war magic ability, but it doesn't say "your" in the learning new cantrips, because it isn't your cantrip until you learn it.

The entire section is about your subclass. Everything in there is things you get from your subclass.

Then you could only learn Eldritch Knight cantrips, which is a class of cantrips that does not exist.

Exqactly. this is why the term "Wizard Cantrip" in context here only is intended to refer to spells gotten as an Eldritch Knight.

No, a wizard cantrip is a cantrip from the wizard spell list. Otherwise "wizard cantrip" means "a cantrip you get from being a high elf", "a cantrip you get from being an Eldritch knight", "a cantrip you get from being an arcane trickster", "a cantrip you get from magic initiate", ect ect changing depending on what thing you are reading. That is nonsense.

Right, because the "Wizard Cantrip" only applies to the Cantrip selected for your EK feature. If its meaning "does not change" then it also means the same thing later and I think it is pretty clear that this is intended to be the case.

Learn one cantrip not meaning learn three cantrips has nothing to do with only having access to Eldritch Knight Cantrips, which do not exist.

No they don't have a spell list. They have spells received through the EK subclass and the terms "wizard cantrip" and "wizard spell" are intended to refer to those spells specifically.

Then what does wizard spell or wizard cantrip mean in Magic Initiate? Why can't I take a Warlock cantrip as an Eldritch Knight Cantrip, since "wizard cantrip" only refers to cantrips gained by being an Eldritch Knight? Your position is not consistent. Because it breaks the moment you step out of the subclass.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes, I agree about Agonizing because the wording is "add". My above post was focused only on shillelagh plus true strike.

Agonizing would add to true strike from the warlock list, but not with shillelagh unless something made it count as a warlock spell.

One could argue RAW that true strike doesn't "deal damage" until 5th level on the grounds that it's the weapon alone that deals it until the cantrip deals extra.... I'm not drawn to that myself.

You can get Shillelagh as a Warlock spell in Pact of the Tome, but the Shillelagh damage is not Cantrip damage IMO. Shilelagh transforms the club or the staff.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is not a high level nuance, it starts as low as 1st level with spells from origin feat, species and class.

Further, it is fundamental to the game when you consider multiclassing for two reasons:

1. The number of spells you prepare and which spells comes from each class individually. If you are not tracking your Warlock, Paladin, or Arcane Trickster how can you determine whether or not you can prepare Protection from Good and Evil or Compelled Duel? The character I linked below has 13 1st level spells prepared coming from 5 different sources.

2. Your saving throws and attack rolls are tied to specific ability scores. If I am not tracking whether Truestrike is from my Arcane Tricster (8 Intelligence) or my Warlock (20 Charisma) how do I determine whether it is -1 or +5 to attack?

Actual example from play, the Warlock-Paladin-Arcane Trickster below is being played and has a 20 Charisma and an 8 Intelligence. If I don't have to track which spells are from what source I can get much more effective combat spells from my Arcane Trickster subclass. It is a big difference.

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Let's say I'm a high elf with Magic initiate (wizard) and I multi-class wizard and EK. Then... all my saving throws and attack rolls are tied to Intelligence. And while, yes, if I decided to add cleric I could only prepare a certain number of cleric only spells... it doesn't particularly matter if I got the light cantrip from any of those sources...

Except I need to have specifically noted that the 7th level War Magic ability only works with two of my cantrips and nothing else. It is fiddly, and the ONLY place it would matter in that build

 

[Chaosmancer]

You would use Charisma for your extra attack through Shilleleagh or Pact of the Blade or both. On an optimized Eldritch Knight you would typically dump strength to 8 and dex to 14. If you wanted to use heavy weapons instead of Shilleleagh you would go with a strength 13, but you would still be using Charisma for your attack stat.

Okay, this still changes nothing from what I could do anyways. And again, EK's aren't even the best for damage, even if you got a Bard 6 EK 7 Warlock 1, you simply are not going to be dealing game breaking amounts of damage. With the use of Action Surge, you are maybe spiking close to the top once per short rest, but otherwise you aren't going to be outperforming other damage builds.

 

[Zardnaar]

Let's say I'm a high elf with Magic initiate (wizard) and I multi-class wizard and EK. Then... all my saving throws and attack rolls are tied to Intelligence. And while, yes, if I decided to add cleric I could only prepare a certain number of cleric only spells... it doesn't particularly matter if I got the light cantrip from any of those sources...

Except I need to have specifically noted that the 7th level War Magic ability only works with two of my cantrips and nothing else. It is fiddly, and the ONLY place it would matter in that build

I would allow your elf spell and magic initiate:wizard spells to work with EK.

Magic Initiate Cleric or Druid no

Touched feats maybe.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would allow your elf spell and magic initiate:wizard spells to work with EK.

Magic Initiate Cleric or Druid no

Touched feats maybe.

Yeah, I personally find that more restrictive than what I would rule, but I can acknowledge that it is a strict reading of RAW.

Not allowing those to work because it should only be the three cantrips you get from Eldritch Knight is a position I think makes no sense.

 

[ECMO3]

You added a bunch of unnecessary words.

"When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip from the Wizard spell list and has a casting time of an action."

"When you reach Fighter level 10, you learn another cantrip from the Wizard spell list."

This wording would clear up any ambiguity RAW, but I don't think this is what they meant or they would have said it. They use the term Wizard spell list several times and did not use it in these four places, strongly implying that it is something different in those places.

Simple, works, and doesn't care about the source at all. Because there is no reason to say that you learn a cantrip from a source that has cantrips from the wizard spell list, that's nonsense.

I agree it is nonsense. It is clear to me when they use the term they mean Cantrip you got from the Eldritch Knight subclass.

Then you could only learn Eldritch Knight cantrips, which is a class of cantrips that does not exist.

It does exist. they are talked about a couple lines above. An cantrip you get from the Eldritch Knight feature is selected from the Wizard list and is referred to as a "Wizard Cantrip" in the rest of this section. It is crystal clear to me that this is the intended meaning even if it is not to you.

No, a wizard cantrip is a cantrip from the wizard spell list.

No in this section it is a Cantrip you have from the Eldritch Knight feature (which are also from the wizard list, but a subset of that full list). I agree they could have worded it better bnut it is clear to me that your interpretation is not the intended wording.

If they meant any cantrip from the Wizard list they would have said that.

Otherwise "wizard cantrip" means "a cantrip you get from being a high elf", "a cantrip you get from being an Eldritch knight", "a cantrip you get from being an arcane trickster", "a cantrip you get from magic initiate", ect ect changing depending on what thing you are reading. That is nonsense.

I guess it theoretically can mean that, but here we are only talking about the intended meaning in the Eldritch Knight subclass.

If you have specific wording from other section I would be happy to talk about it, and what that term, if used elsewhere, means in those sections, but they are not applicable to the Eldritch Knight section.

Learn one cantrip not meaning learn three cantrips has nothing to do with only having access to Eldritch Knight Cantrips, which do not exist.

Yes it does exist. The Eldritch Knight subclass is covered on pages 96-98 including detail on how to acquire spells and cantrips under that subclass.

Then what does wizard spell or wizard cantrip mean in Magic Initiate? Why can't I take a Warlock cantrip as an Eldritch Knight Cantrip, since "wizard cantrip" only refers to cantrips gained by being an Eldritch Knight? Your position is not consistent.

You can do anything the DM allows at your table. What is clear to me though is "Wizard cantrip" as used on page 98 of the PHB is intended to apply to cantrips gained through the Eldritch Knight subclass.

Because it breaks the moment you step out of the subclass.

My position is very consistent and yes the wording in the Eldritch Knight subclass is poor and does not apply outside the EK subclass and this was discussed on this thread some 30 pages ago.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, I personally find that more restrictive than what I would rule, but I can acknowledge that it is a strict reading of RAW.

Not allowing those to work because it should only be the three cantrips you get from Eldritch Knight is a position I think makes no sense.

Well I double checked. War magic specifically says wizard cantrips.

So any wizard cantrip regardless of the source applies imho. MC wizard, high elf and magic initiate wizard I'm fine with.

So unless otherwise eg errata that's RAW for me. Generally I don't use erratta anyway but it's useful for RAI.