D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Chaosmancer]

This is not true.

The 10th and 11th line on page 97: "When you reach fighter level 10, you learn an-other Wizard cantrip of your choice"ypi

IMO the term "Wizard cantrip" here on page 97 means the same thing when that term is again used on page 98 under War Magic: "....you can replace one of your Wizard cantrips ...."

IMO this means the same thing in both places, as you noted it does not "change meaning"

You sure did highlight the phrase "wizard cantrip" which as we all know is identical to the phrase "Wizard spell", right? All the same words and everything.

Yes and when it talks about learning a "Wizard cantrip" it is refering specifically to the spells being learned from the Eldritch Knight subclass. If your EK has multiclass levels in Wizard and Warlock and Sorcer you do not get to chose another "Wizard cantrip" for those classes when you gain 10th level in Eldritch Knight. You only choose it for Eldritch Knight. It only refers to cantrips for Eldritch KNight.

The fact that they used this term "Wizard cantrip" to me means this is what they are talking about every time they use the term - the spells you get from the Eldritch Knight feature

Wut? Why would you ever even think that gaining a 10th level in one class, which allows you to learn one cantrip, would allow you to learn four cantrips just because you have some monstrous multi-class? And if you are trying to say that an EK with levels in sorcerer can't pick any cantrips that appear on the sorcerer spell list... you've got a problem. Because a lot of those cantrips granted by your Eldritch Knight Subclass, aka, cantrips on the wizard spell list, are on the sorcerer spell list as well.

Again, this can only mean "a cantrip from the wizard spell list" it cannot mean anything else, because you are learning a new cantrip. You can't learn a new cantrip granted by your subclass, because you subclass doesn't have a spell list. It grants access to the wizard spell list.

So if I have a Warlock 1, Wizard 1, Sorcer 1, Eldritch Knight 9 and I gain 10th level in Fighter I can get a cantrip in all 4 of those classes? Because that is what you are saying if it means the same thing in both places. Either the term "Wizard cantrip" is meant to mean the Cantrips from the EK feature or it is meant to mean all your cantrips from all classes that are on the Wizard list.

Of course this is not what it means! In my opinion it is clear it is referring to the same thing both times the phrase is used and in my opinion it means the same thing in both places..

... I was being hyperbolic, you seriously think there is any possible way "gain one cantrip" when you level up could give you four cantrips? No. No it can't. There is no reasonable reading of "gain one cantrip" that lets you gain cantrips in classes that didn't level up.

Yes, you might have access to fire bolt from three classes, but that doesn't mean you can learn three cantrips instead of one.

It is not in my opinion. It is referring to a spell you get through the EK feature specifically (which also happen to be on the Wizard list), but I don't believe it refers to all spells that are on the Wizard list for all classes you have.

That is not true, it includes the new spell you get when you pick up that feature. It does not include spells from other multiclasses and you can't get new spells from the "Wizard list" on those multiclasses when you gain a level in Eldritch Knight.

This is nonsense. Eldritch Knights don't have a spell list. Wizard spell and Wizard cantrip refer to spells and cantrips on the Wizard Spell list. That's it.

 

[Ashrym]

You cannot add your charisma bonus twice. “Add your charisma bonus” is the same thing repeated, like “die your hair blue”. You have blue hair, not double blue hair.

This analogy is conflating quantitative with qualitative. It isn't a valid comparison because "charisma bonus" isn't a definitive quality.

The only thing adding the charisma bonus does is define the number to be added when a feature instructs the player to add that number. Numbers can be added together with the only limit being sources of additional numbers.

Appeal to general stupidity is not a strong argument. They do not stack for the same reason that finesse weapons do not stack dexterity and strength bonuses, and Mage Armor does not stack with full plate. Add ability score bonus is a one time thing, if you have multiple options only the highest one applies.

I underlined something problematic in your statement. There was no need to insult the intelligence of other posters in a discussion around interpreting rules. We don't need to insult people in order to present our points of view and discuss them.

Other posters have already pointed out the flaws in your argument here. The features specify "add" or "instead of" for example and all we need to do is follow that wording. I'll add another point:

Crossbow Expert​

General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Dexterity 13+)

You gain the following benefits.

Ability Score Increase. Increase your Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Ignore Loading. You ignore the Loading property of the Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, and Light Crossbow (all called crossbows elsewhere in this feat). If you’re holding one of them, you can load a piece of ammunition into it even if you lack a free hand.

Firing in Melee. Being within 5 feet of an enemy doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with crossbows.

Dual Wielding. When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the extra attack if that attack is with a crossbow that has the Light property and you aren’t already adding that modifier to the damage.

I underlined the relevant part under "dual wielding" for this example. When a feature does not allow us to add an ability score bonus that's already been added once that feature specifies such in the it's description.

 

[ECMO3]

You sure did highlight the phrase "wizard cantrip" which as we all know is identical to the phrase "Wizard spell", right? All the same words and everything.



Wut? Why would you ever even think that gaining a 10th level in one class, which allows you to learn one cantrip, would allow you to learn four cantrips just because you have some monstrous multi-class?

Because the term "Wizard Cantrip" if it means Cantrips for all of your classes, not just Eldritch Knight then it means it here as well.

Let's take the 7th level War Magic feature and reword it:

"When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip from any source or class that appear on the Wizard spell list and has a casting time of an action."

I replaced "Wizard Cantrip" with the underlined. Now let's use that same wording in the 10th level spellcasting feature:

"When you reach Fighter level 10, you learn another cantrip from any source or class that have cantrips that appear on the Wizard spell list."

I don't think this, and I don't think the intended meaning changes (and you claimed earlier you didn't either). I think it means the same thing in both places and that is it is referencing specifically the cantrips you get through this subclass.

You might not like that, but it is my opinion and I think the intent is clear in this regard.

Again, this can only mean "a cantrip from the wizard spell list" it cannot mean anything else, because you are learning a new cantrip. You can't learn a new cantrip granted by your subclass, because you subclass doesn't have a spell list. It grants access to the wizard spell list.

The entire section is about your subclass. Everything in there is things you get from your subclass.

... I was being hyperbolic, you seriously think there is any possible way "gain one cantrip" when you level up could give you four cantrips? No. No it can't. There is no reasonable reading of "gain one cantrip" that lets you gain cantrips in classes that didn't level up.

Exqactly. this is why the term "Wizard Cantrip" in context here only is intended to refer to spells gotten as an Eldritch Knight.

Yes, you might have access to fire bolt from three classes, but that doesn't mean you can learn three cantrips instead of one.

Right, because the "Wizard Cantrip" only applies to the Cantrip selected for your EK feature. If its meaning "does not change" then it also means the same thing later and I think it is pretty clear that this is intended to be the case.

This is nonsense. Eldritch Knights don't have a spell list. Wizard spell and Wizard cantrip refer to spells and cantrips on the Wizard Spell list. That's it.

No they don't have a spell list. They have spells received through the EK subclass and the terms "wizard cantrip" and "wizard spell" are intended to refer to those spells specifically.

 

[Ashrym]

I did miss that. I would note however that this language would be utterly bizarre to see on a subclass for a class that doesn't get spells. No fighter feature gives you spells that aren't on the fighter spell list... because there is no fighter spell list.

That's why the wording is included in the spellcasting section of classes that cast spells. The wording isn't included for the eldritch knight or arcane trickster. The language used in their spellcasting sections is "your wizard spells" and "the wizard spell list" instead.

And this level of high-detail nuance and caring about the precise origin of your spells seems way more fiddly than the game is usually presented.

I was already keeping track of the sources of my spells so that I didn't accidentally short myself on spells prepared or have an extra. The only spells we really need to track are those outside of the class features and that's not a lot, tbh, unless we're multiclassing. If we're multiclassing then then multiclassing rules also require we track that already.

Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).

Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.

It's something we're already doing, although I agree it's fiddly. ;-)

 

[Chaosmancer]

They work then you quicken it.

True strike, celestial warlock ability and Agonizing Blast

What is bizarre about this example is that it 100% works for a Celestial Warlock. True Strike is a Warlock spell, so... this just works as written. I don't see how being a Eldritch Knight plays into this at all, unless you want to use the extra attack... which why would you if you are investing in your charisma.

You can also do ek7, V bard 6, Warlock 1 cast true strike twice as part of your attacks add charisma bonus twice, action surge cast true strike twice more.......

Or celestial wl 6, v bard 6, fighter 2.

Might be bladesinger instead of Valor bard.

Okay. Neat trick for level 14. But nowhere close to gamebreaking, not by miles.

 

[ECMO3]

And this level of high-detail nuance and caring about the precise origin of your spells seems way more fiddly than the game is usually presented.

This is not a high level nuance, it starts as low as 1st level with spells from origin feat, species and class.

Further, it is fundamental to the game when you consider multiclassing for two reasons:

1. The number of spells you prepare and which spells comes from each class individually. If you are not tracking your Warlock, Paladin, or Arcane Trickster how can you determine whether or not you can prepare Protection from Good and Evil or Compelled Duel? The character I linked below has 13 1st level spells prepared coming from 5 different sources.

2. Your saving throws and attack rolls are tied to specific ability scores. If I am not tracking whether Truestrike is from my Arcane Tricster (8 Intelligence) or my Warlock (20 Charisma) how do I determine whether it is -1 or +5 to attack?

Actual example from play, the Warlock-Paladin-Arcane Trickster below is being played and has a 20 Charisma and an 8 Intelligence. If I don't have to track which spells are from what source I can get much more effective combat spells from my Arcane Trickster subclass. It is a big difference.

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

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www.dndbeyond.com

 

[Zardnaar]

What is bizarre about this example is that it 100% works for a Celestial Warlock. True Strike is a Warlock spell, so... this just works as written. I don't see how being a Eldritch Knight plays into this at all, unless you want to use the extra attack... which why would you if you are investing in your charisma.



Okay. Neat trick for level 14. But nowhere close to gamebreaking, not by miles.

Yeah there was another build doing something similar but I've forgotten how it was put togather.

Earlier comment was sword an board may exclusively be one shillelagh based.

BUT the way they designed it GWM and Dual wielding are far ahead of sword and board and archery it's lopsided.

With a decent amount of effort sword and board is very sub optimal unless you're a Paladin (indirectly +1 shield is vastly cheaper than +1 armor).

You can gave a one handed weapon dealing damage similar to the old -5/+10 death without the -5 part.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

This is not a high level nuance, it starts as low as 1st level with spells from origin feat, species and class.

Further, it is fundamental to the game when you consider multiclassing for two reasons:

1. The number of spells you prepare and which spells comes from each class individually. If you are not tracking your Warlock, Paladin, or Arcane Trickster how can you determine whether or not you can prepare Protection from Good and Evil or Compelled Duel? The character I linked below has 13 1st level spells prepared coming from 5 different sources.

2. Your saving throws and attack rolls are tied to specific ability scores. If I am not tracking whether Truestrike is from my Arcane Tricster (8 Intelligence) or my Warlock (20 Charisma) how do I determine whether it is -1 or +5 to attack?

Actual example from play, the Warlock-Paladin-Arcane Trickster below is being played and has a 20 Charisma and an 8 Intelligence. If I don't have to track which spells are from what source I can get much more effective combat spells from my Arcane Trickster subclass. It is a big difference.

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

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www.dndbeyond.com

It says the save for Tasha's Hideous Laughter is 17 and it says "wizard spell"(magic initiate) but it's still keying off Charisma. I assume that's because that's the stat you chose and not some automatic thing that DDbeyond is doing?

 

[ECMO3]

What is bizarre about this example is that it 100% works for a Celestial Warlock. True Strike is a Warlock spell, so... this just works as written. I don't see how being a Eldritch Knight plays into this at all, unless you want to use the extra attack... which why would you if you are investing in your charisma.

You would use Charisma for your extra attack through Shilleleagh or Pact of the Blade or both. On an optimized Eldritch Knight you would typically dump strength to 8 and dex to 14. If you wanted to use heavy weapons instead of Shilleleagh you would go with a strength 13, but you would still be using Charisma for your attack stat.

 

[ECMO3]

It says the save for Tasha's Hideous Laughter is 17 and it says "wizard spell"(magic initiate) but it's still keying off Charisma. I assume that's because that's the stat you chose and not some automatic thing that DDbeyond is doing?

yes THL is from the Origin Feat Magic Intitiate-Wizard and that feat is tied to Charisma.