D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Ancoulainn]

Its also like the twilight cleric though as in most DMs wont allow

I've played it plenty of times. Never ever ran into issues. But I've heard that certain types of DMs don't want to deal with it, especially in low level campaigns. Never met one of them, though.

it but its obscure book as well.

It's in Tasha's which is one of the standard/core books.

It's also the spells in said book.

All their spells are from the PHB.

 

[TheSword]

That is reasonably foreseeable.

I’ve been playing D&D for 30 years, I’ve run circa 12 long term 5e campaigns (1-2 year long each), I circa 30 hours a month actively gaming. I’m active on forums (8,000+ posts) and in all honesty I have never heard the idea that Suggestion can be used to make creatures willing for the purposes of spells until today. I’m not a rules expert but I would say I’m not at the lower end of rules competency and I wouldn’t have known to remind players that idea is unacceptable in session zero. So again I respectfully disagree.

No, just no. If it's RAW and the DM wants to divert from RAW, it's on him, not the player who wants to play by the rules as they are. RAW is the default, not the exception. And RAW is what they say, not what you read into them.

Yes, unforeseeable things may happen. So, communication should never stop. And it's a two-way street.

Sounds also like the most boring interpretation.

Yeah, it meant that you can't trust that person. Exactly my point. Who trusts a DM who can't establish ground rules and then just ruins the fun as he goes along?

Determining rules as written is about interpretation. We fill thousands of pages full of it here. The DM doesn’t know what choices and combinations the players are going to pick. The players do. Therefore the onus is on the players, where there is doubt, to get that doubt clarified.

I mean it might ruin your fun, but I would imagine it’s not much fun for the DM and the other players that don’t bind dragons to have to wait and watch one player showboating. If the whole campaign is geared to that and all players are on board with your approach, then you’re good aren’t you. Nothing to worry about.

However, when you join an online game with strangers and decide to start pulling this stuff out of the bag you’re going to get push back. Most DMs want a fun game for everyone. Simulacrum loop or unlimited Magen is a very specific kind of fun.

 

[TheSword]

I've played it plenty of times. Never ever ran into issues. But I've heard that certain types of DMs don't want to deal with it, especially in low level campaigns. Never met one of them, though.

Well you can add my name to Zard’s. However interestingly it was also the player of a 1-18 level Twilight cleric in my Age of Worms campaign that first felt that the subclass was too much and said he wouldn’t play one again because it was too disruptive.

 

[Ancoulainn]

I’ve been playing D&D for 30 years, I’ve run circa 12 long term 5e campaigns (1-2 year long each), I circa 30 hours a month actively gaming. I’m active on forums (8,000+ posts) and in all honest I have never heard the idea that Suggestion can be used to make creatures willing for the purposes of spells until today. I’m not a rules expert but I would say I’m not at the lower end of rules competency and I wouldn’t have known to remind players that idea is unacceptable in session zero. So again I respectfully disagree.

That's not an argument. Is has been a staple for Wizard optimizers for over a decade. It's in practically every guide. And Druids can do similar stuff with Awaken. It's ok if you haven't heard of it, even though I can't fathom how, but it's never to late to learn that this is pretty standard for optimizers.

Determining rules as written is about interpretation.

It's first and foremost about reading comprehension. Willing is defined as the urging aligning with the creatures desires. The creatures desire is to carry out the task given by Suggestion. Arguing with memory, bypassing will, overriding thinking, and all that other jazz is just bending over backwards.

We fill thousands of pages full of it here. The DM doesn’t know what choices and combinations the players are going to pick. The players do. Therefore the onus is on the players, where there is doubt, to get that doubt clarified.

If the DM has a Wizard who has Planar Binding and doesn't know what he can do with it, then they shouldn't be a DM and instead read the books and learn first. As they say, lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

I mean it might ruin your fun, but I would imagine it’s not much fun for the DM and the other players that don’t bind dragons to have to see one player showboating.

Hence session 0.

If the whole campaign is geared to that and all players are on board with your approach, then you’re good aren’t you. Nothing to worry about.

Yes!

However, when you join an online game with strangers and decide to start pulling this stuff out of the bag you’re going to get push back. Most DMs want a fun game for everyone. Simulacrum loop or unlimited Magen is a very specific kind of fun.

Again, it's the default RAW. It's the DM's job to know what's going on. If he's not used to playing with optimizers, then he should either stick with what he knows or read up. He can state "no optimizers". That's perfectly ok. But if he doesn't and then gives pushback because he's overwhelmed with someone who knows the game better than him, that's on him.

 

[TheSword]

That's not an argument. Is has been a staple for Wizard optimizers for over a decade. It's in practically every guide. And Druids can do similar stuff with Awaken. It's ok if you haven't heard of it, even though I can't fathom how, but it's never too late to learn that this is pretty standard for optimizers.

My point was you can’t prepare for the unknown, and my experience suggests that for a lot of DMs there will be unknowns.

It's first and foremost about reading comprehension. Willing is defined as the urging aligning with the creatures desires. The creatures desire is to carry out the task given by Suggestion. Arguing with memory, bypassing will, overriding thinking, and all that other jazz is just bending over backwards.

If the DM has a Wizard who has Planar Binding and doesn't know what he can do with it, shouldn't be a DM and instead read the books and learn first.

Hence session 0.

Yes!

Again, it's the default RAW. It's the DMs job to know what's going on. If he's not used to playing with optimizers, then he should either stick with what he knows or read up.

If only wishing made it so. I love your passion though. Welcome to the forum and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[ECMO3]

If that's what your DM rules, cool. With the potential of using a heavy weapon with Great Weapon Master, I, however, do not see a major benefit in having Eldritch Blast on this build, though.

Well there are a few reasons.

She does not have GWM. She uses Two Weapon Fighting with a pact Scimitar+2 in one hand and either a Club+2 or a Shillelagh +2 (from Tome Pact) in the other. So with 2 attacks a round currently that is Green Flame Blade Shillelagh-Sap, Shillelagh-sap, push or slow), Scimitar-nic) if she has a chance to cast Shillelagh or

Without Shillelagh it is Scimitar GFB-Sap, Club-sap, Scimitar-nick

For Ranged attacks her primary is Firebolt, followed by a Longbow+1 attack. At times though Eldritch Blast is better, because it is more attacks and she has several riders from both subclass and Hex that add damage on each attack. So there is a reason for EB.

With Pact of the Tome, Eldritch Knight, Tiefling, Magic Initiate Cleric and Magic Initiate Wizard from Lessons of the first ones she has 14 Cantrips, so it is not like she can't spare a slot for situational cantrips like Eldritch Blast and Starry Wisp that don't work with Warmagic.

Instead of investing in Charisma on top of Intelligence, you could just invest in Strength.

I dumped Intelligence, my intelligence is an 8. At 16th level, my Strength is 16 (started at 15). My Charisma is 22 (picked up 2 points from a Tome of Leadership). I think two weapon fighting is better in play..

Part if this is Eldritch Strike works on a hit and more attacks mean more hits or chances to hit and does not require a feat.

And with the new rules involving heavy weapons requiring a minimum strength score of 13 and Full Plate requiring a Strength score of 15,

You can wear Plate with proficiency as long as you take your 1st level in Fighter. You just have a movement penalty, but in her case she started with a 15 Strength/.

If you dump Intelligence and just get spells without save or attack roll via Eldritch Knight and do everything else via Warlock, it gets a bit easier. If you want more damage, going the Strength route is better. If you more higher level spells, multiclassing into Wizard is better after level 7.

The Strength route is not better for damage when you consider Agonizing Blast as that always adds your Charisma bonus to the Cantrip damage.

You generally cast Mind Sliver for the d4 debuff which stacks with other debuffs like Bane

Yeah but you are losing a ton of damage from Agonizing Green Flame Blade and a hit, which causes disadvantage, is both easier to land and is a better debuff.

. I'd use it depending on how important it is to me that my next spell lands. If you really want to hit with Dissonant Whispers and the target is a CR 17 Death Knight with a +9 to Wisdom saves and Advantage on saves against spells, just Disadvantage won't cut it. And a CR 17 Death Knight is just barely a deadly encounter for 4 level 12 characters. But fortunately, their Intelligence save is just +1 and just right for the Mind Sliver debuff.

It doesn't make much of a difference, especially when you are giving up an attack to do it.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to. But Valor Bard with Shillelagh or a Lute of Thunderous Thumping, if you can get your hands on it, works quite well.

I have Shillelagh on my Warlock/Eldritch Knight

But 2 levels of Warlock really improve the damage output, true. In that case, I would start with Warlock, though, because, while Dex saves are more frequent, Wisdom saves usually are worse and being paralyzed or charmed isn't fun.

I went round and round on this one, I ended up starting Fighter for Heavy armor, but generally I would agree.

I assume you refer to 2014 rules since all classes now get their subclasses at level 3. I was really surprised to hear that, because you don't hear somebody stand up for enchanters very often. For a good reason!

No we take it at 3 now, so whichever your table does

Enchantment isn't bad, but I don't think they even come close to Chronurgy at any level.

There is no contest IMO. Hyp;notic Gaze is a 3rd level (or 2nd level) at will ability that is the rough equivalent of a 6th level spell in terms of power in play. It causes indefinite incapacitation on a single failed save, with no more saves and no concentration for the Wizard to keep up. It doesn't work against creatures immune to charmed, but you are still a full wizard with a full list of spells for virtually any circumstance against those creatures.

Fail one save and I can keep you incapacitated for 5 days until you die of exhaustion (longer if someone is willing to cast Greater restoration and keep you and me alive). The only downside is you need to get in melee range, and that is why Goblin is the race you want for it.

The 10th level ability is pretty powerful too.

I've seen the other wizards you mention in play, and they have not been as powerful in the

 

[Ancoulainn]

Well you can add my name to Zard’s. However interestingly it was also the player of a 1-18 level Twilight cleric in my Age of Worms campaign that first felt that the subclass was too much and said he wouldn’t play one again because it was too disruptive.

1d6+level temp HP, flight, 300 feet darkvision, and half cover was too disruptive?! Wait until you hear about a Warlock who knows how to get the most out of Gaze of Two Minds and becomes virtually unkillable.

Regardless, never had that issue. Kept the party alive at low levels and the DM threw an extra 2-3 waves at us to keep things interesting. You just need to know how to adjust.

 

[ECMO3]

Well you can add my name to Zard’s. However interestingly it was also the player of a 1-18 level Twilight cleric in my Age of Worms campaign that first felt that the subclass was too much and said he wouldn’t play one again because it was too disruptive.

I would agree with A on this. I've played Twilight Cleric and I've seen others play. IT is poweful at low and mid levels, but generally not OP IMO and it is way outclassed at high levels, by many subclasses.

People talk about Twilight Sanctuary, but the best ability they have is actually the 300 foot darkvision IME. TS is good, situationally awesome, but it works better in the white room than it does in actual play. At high levels spells are a better use of your action.

I will add this anecdote - I've seen about 15 players die in the last 8 years of playing 5E, and one of those was a Wizard who died while I had up a Twilight Sanctuary. Something different with my action would have kept him from dying probably.

 

[Ancoulainn]

There is no contest IMO. Hyp;notic Gaze is a 3rd level (or 2nd level) at will ability that is the rough equivalent of a 6th level spell in terms of power in play. It causes indefinite incapacitation on a single failed save, with no more saves and no concentration for the Wizard to keep up. It doesn't work against creatures immune to charmed, but you are still a full wizard with a full list of spells for virtually any circumstance against those creatures.

So, it either eats up your action every turn to take out one single target or it's entirely useless..

The 10th level ability is pretty powerful too.

Nowhere near Arcane Abeyance! It's a free up cast. Nothing more.

I've seen the other wizards you mention in play, and they have not been as powerful in the

Must have not known how to play them because they are leagues better. It's the one thing even Treantmonk and I agree on.

Did they use Arcane Abeyance to bind Summon Dragon into the bead, given it to a party member, preferably a Fighter or Artificer, or their familiar, then cast Summon Dragon normally to have two summons on the battlefield at the same time. Have they used Telekinesis to burn through legendary resistances and then forced a fail to virtually incapacitate? I mean, they should have 3-4 free uses of Silvery Barbs if built right. Did they at least have +12-14 initiative baseline?

 

[Ancoulainn]

I would agree with A on this. I've played Twilight Cleric and I've seen others play. IT is poweful at low and mid levels, but generally not OP IMO and it is way outclassed at high levels, by many subclasses.

People talk about Twilight Sanctuary, but the best ability they have is actually the 300 foot darkvision IME. TS is good, situationally awesome, but it works better in the white room than it does in actual play. At high levels spells are a better use of your action.

I will add this anecdote - I've seen about 15 players die in the last 8 years of playing 5E, and one of those was a Wizard who died while I had up a Twilight Sanctuary. Something different with my action would have kept him from dying probably.

You know it only requires one action to start it for 1 min and then it stays up and you have your action and bonus action available every turn, right? You don't need to use your action every turn for the temp HP. It's entirely passive.

And you have bonus action spells like Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word, Mass Healing Word, and so on. And once available, you cast Conjure Celestial in your second round for 4d12+5 healing per creature per turn (not round) and 6d12 damage on a failed save per creature per turn. Forced movement is key here! So, grapple/cuddle your buddies.

If then somebody dies, I'd be surprised.