D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[Ancoulainn]

Combined in previous post!

 

[Ancoulainn]

Combined in previous post.

 

[Maxperson]

I have the spell right here. It says "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability." I post a screenshot of the spell to the response.

You keep misstating that. I will quote and bold the relevant portion.

"You suggest a course of activity-described in no more than 25 words..."

You do not pursue the suggestion to the best your ability, because if you suggest a non-action, it's ignored. You only have to pursue an activity. Willingness isn't an activity. It's a state of being. You don't act to become willing or unwilling, you act to pick up an object, or walk somewhere. You know, activity.

As for the action part, you seem to insuinuate that changing your disposition, your thoughts, and the like wouldn't be actions? So, learning, thinking, etc are not actions to you?

They are not actions. Sitting in class, paying attention to the teacher would be an action. Learning is not an action. You either retain what is told to you or read by you or you don't. Feelings are also not actions. Being willing or unwilling is not an action.

It seems that your point of confusion centers around knowing what is or is not an action.

Look at the examples listed in the suggestion spell. They all involve.........................activity, not states of being. Also, I know we've been saying action, but it's not action, it's activity, which is different. Sitting around thinking involves no activity. If you walk into a room full of people sitting around thinking, no one is going to describe that as a room full of activity. If you walk into a full club and people are dancing all around, THAT is a room full of activity.

 

[Maxperson]

Again, your opinion. I don't ask. Never have asked. Never will ask. And never encountered a DM who said they were. Nor would I play with one. If you want to handle this differently, I'm not stopping you.

It's not an opinion. The core books are the PHB, DMG and MM. That's how it is. The other books are explicitly written as optional and are not core, which means that they are not in play for you to use unless the DM says that you can use them. Perhaps you aren't understanding that if everything is core, there is no core. Core means the center. And at the center of D&D are the three core books. The rest are outside of that core.

I saw you try to respond to this with, "Well everything is optional..." which fails on it's face, because while the DM can change a non-optional rule, he has to act to do so. The default position of the game is that non-optional rules are in play unless the DM says otherwise. The OFFICIAL optional rules, those things marked as optional by the game itself, have a default position of not in play unless the DM says otherwise. They have opposite default positions.

The "bending over backwards" is with regards to not having an argument besides a personal opinion, not with regards to the result. My point is not that I am correct or that y'all are not. Why would it be? Every table decides and rules differently on all sorts of game mechanics all the time. Or do you really think I would change my disposition towards anything at my table just because somebody here says something? Do you think that I expect you to do so at your table because I said something? Why would I even care about that? It doesn't involve me and it doesn't affect me. My point is that y'all are arguing without having a single valid argument aside from the one I provided y'all with. Y'all are arguing only to antagonize. And the other dude all but said so explicitly by saying that he wanted to make sure that inexperienced DM coming to forums would see dissenting viewpoints.

Your position involves two mutually exclusive positions. That the Charmed condition both forces willingness that allows no roll, and at the same time allows a roll with advantage.

RAW does not allow you to force willingness as willingness is not a course of activity.

 

[Ancoulainn]

You keep misstating that. I will quote and bold the relevant portion.

"You suggest a course of activity-described in no more than 25 words..."

Yes, that is also in the text. As is "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability." I'll add the screenshot again and underline the respective passages.

You do not pursue the suggestion to the best your ability, because if you suggest a non-action, it's ignored.

"Make yourself willing" is an action.

You only have to pursue an activity. Willingness isn't an activity. It's a state of being.

Correct. Like "I am sick". But something that would change that "willingness" or "state of being" is an action. "Get better" is a suggested course of action. Just not a very detailed one.

You don't act to become willing or unwilling, you act to pick up an object, or walk somewhere. You know, activity.

There is nothing in the text that would suggest that actions are limited to physical activities. And the word "action" in the English language does not have that limitation either.

They are not actions. Sitting in class, paying attention to the teacher would be an action. Learning is not an action.

A verb that describes a change of state is an action verb. Now, we can argue whether "learning" changes a student's state or whether "understanding" is a better example. Think about it: If you tell your kid that they should learn for their next exam, does this involve an action on their part or not? But that's really all the time I want to spend on this sidequest.

You either retain what is told to you or read by you or you don't. Feelings are also not actions. Being willing or unwilling is not an action.

"Being willing" is not, but "becoming willing" is because it's a change of state.

It seems that your point of confusion centers around knowing what is or is not an action.

I was just about to say the same to you, but I was too polite to do it.

Look at the examples listed in the suggestion spell. They all involve.........................activity, not states of being. Also, I know we've been saying action, but it's not action, it's activity, which is different. Sitting around thinking involves no activity. If you walk into a room full of people sitting around thinking, no one is going to describe that as a room full of activity. If you walk into a full club and people are dancing all around, THAT is a room full of activity.

You're saying that "thinking" is not an activity? It involves quite a lot of cognitive processes and burns calories. I was going to say something else first, but then I thought "too easy". People have a tendency to assume that if they can't see something, that nothing is happening.

It's not an opinion. The core books are the PHB, DMG and MM. That's how it is. The other books are explicitly written as optional and are not core, which means that they are not in play for you to use unless the DM says that you can use them.

Yes, it is an opinion. At my table and at all the tables I ever played at, people regarded them as core. Whether they are written as "optional" does not change that. To us, "core" refers to books that are applicable to a wide range of settings and "non-core" books are setting-specifc ones. For someone who just previously based their analysis on how people would describe something, you quickly made a 180 when it suited you. And why are you arguing this? What are you trying to achieve?

Perhaps you aren't understanding that if everything is core, there is no core. Core means the center. And at the center of D&D are the three core books. The rest are outside of that core.

Did I say that everything is core? Did I say that Ravnica would be core or Van Richten's or Forge of the Artificer?

I saw you try to respond to this with, "Well everything is optional..." which fails on it's face, because while the DM can change a non-optional rule, he has to act to do so. The default position of the game is that non-optional rules are in play unless the DM says otherwise. The OFFICIAL optional rules, those things marked as optional by the game itself, have a default position of not in play unless the DM says otherwise. They have opposite default positions.

Ah, that's the reason why you argue this. You want to determine for others what they are supposed to consider as "default", what DMs are supposed to be required to act on, and what players are allowed to expect. Or are we maybe allowed to decide that for ourselves rather than being dictated by you?

Your position involves two mutually exclusive positions. That the Charmed condition both forces willingness that allows no roll, and at the same time allows a roll with advantage.

As previously mentioned, I said that first. I don't know why you keep repeating my very own argument to me. The other guy did that too at the end. It's weird.

RAW does not allow you to force willingness as willingness is not a course of activity.

Again, "being willing" is a state or condition. "Becoming willing" is a change of state which makes it an action. And a mental action is an activity involving brain processes. You can see it differently, but that's not supported by the English language. Sorry, but after telling me what I would have to determine as a DM or can expect as a player, rewriting the English language goes a bit too far.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, that is also in the text. As is "The Charmed target pursues the suggestion to the best of its ability." I'll add the screenshot again and underline the respective passages.

"Make yourself willing" is an action.

Correct. Like "I am sick". But something that would change that "willingness" or "state of being" is an action. "Get better" is a suggested course of action. Just not a very detailed one.

There is nothing in the text that would suggest that actions are limited to physical activities. And the word "action" in the English language does not have that limitation either.

A verb that describes a change of state is an action verb. Now, we can argue whether "learning" changes a student's state or whether "understanding" is a better example. Think about it: If you tell your kid that they should learn for their next exam, does this involve an action on their part or not? But that's really all the time I want to spend on this sidequest.

"Being willing" is not, but "becoming willing" is because it's a change of state.

I was just about to say the same to you, but I was too polite to do it.

You're saying that "thinking" is not an activity? It involves quite a lot of cognitive processes and burns calories. I was going to say something else first, but then I thought "too easy". People have a tendency to assume that if they can't see something, that nothing is happening.

Yes, it is an opinion. At my table and at all the tables I ever played at, people regarded them as core. Whether they are written as "optional" does not change that. To us, "core" refers to books that are applicable to a wide range of settings and "non-core" books are setting-specifc ones. For someone who just previously based their analysis on how people would describe something, you quickly made a 180 when it suited you. And why are you arguing this? What are you trying to achieve?

Did I say that everything is core? Did I say that Ravnica would be core or Van Richten's or Forge of the Artificer?

Ah, that's the reason why you argue this. You want to determine for others what they are supposed to consider as "default", what DMs are supposed to be required to act on, and what players are allowed to expect. Or are we maybe allowed to decide that for ourselves rather than being dictated by you?

As previously mentioned, I said that first.

Again, "being willing" is a state or condition. "Becoming willing" is a change of state which makes it an action. And a mental action is an activity involving brain processes. You can see it differently, but that's not supported by the English language. Sorry, but after telling me what I would have to determine as a DM or can expect as a player, rewriting the English language goes a bit too far.

The long and the short of it that no matter how you try to twist language, you cannot get around the rules as written.

1) Suggestion requires activity. Activity involves verbs.
2) Willing is an adjective. Willingly is an adverb. Willingness is a noun. Willing is not a verb, so the portion of the Suggestion spell you are using fails to work. That leaves....
3) Charmed. Charmed allows a roll with advantage for social checks, which 100% proves that Charmed does not include willing. Willing allows no roll.

There is no reading that gets you around RAW and allows Suggestion to make targets willing.

Play the way you have the most fun, but don't pretend that it's RAW what you are doing. You are inventing and assuming in order to get to the place that you want to be.

Edit: You are trying to get Suggestion(a 3rd level spell) to be on par with Dominate Person(a 5th level spell). You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

[Ancoulainn]

The long and the short of it that no matter how you try to twist language, you cannot get around the rules as written.

The same applies to you.

1) Suggestion requires activity. Activity involves verbs.

Correct!

2) Willing is an adjective. Willingly is an adverb. Willingness is a noun. Willing is not a verb, so the portion of the Suggestion spell you are using fails to work. That leaves....

Correct. But "becoming willing" or "making oneself willing" involves a verb. And I think I said that now half a dozen times. "To become" and "to make" are verbs that describe a change of state. You keep forgetting that.

3) Charmed. Charmed allows a roll with advantage for social checks, which 100% proves that Charmed does not include willing. Willing allows no roll.

Yes, which again was my argument in the first place. The more you repeat it, the weirder it gets.

There is no reading that gets you around RAW and allows Suggestion to make targets willing.

That's your opinion based conveniently on ignoring that "to make" and "to become" are verbs.

Play the way you have the most fun, but don't pretend that it's RAW what you are doing. You are inventing and assuming in order to get to the place that you want to be.

Nah, I leave that pretending, inventing, and assuming to you along with the patronizing and the condescension.

Toodles!

But should you be interested in learning more about this, check out this video:

 

[Maxperson]

The same applies to you.

Correct!

Correct. But "becoming willing" or "making oneself willing" involves a verb. And I think I said that now half a dozen times. "To become" and "to make" are verbs that describe a change of state. You keep forgetting that.

Yes, which again was my argument in the first place. The more you repeat it, the weirder it gets.

That's your opinion based conveniently on ignoring that "to make" and "to become" are verbs.

Nah, I leave that pretending, inventing, and assuming to you along with the patronizing and the condescension.

Toodles!

But should you be interested in learning more about this, check out this video:

You don't make yourself willing. You either are or are not. It's a state of being. You can be forced to do something against your will and agree to do it(blackmail for example), but agreeing to such force isn't making yourself willing. Someone can try to convince you of something, which can cause a change in your state of willingness, but it isn't you acting to become willing. You simply change states based on the argument.

 

[Ancoulainn]

You don't make yourself willing. You either are or are not. It's a state of being. You can be forced to do something against your will and agree to do it(blackmail for example), but agreeing to such force isn't making yourself willing. Someone can try to convince you of something, which can cause a change in your state of willingness, but it isn't you acting to become willing. You simply change states based on the argument.

The phenomenon of autosuggestion, as mention earlier, and other related phenomena suggest otherwise. You clearly can make yourself willing. And you can be forced to make yourself willing by outside influences rather than intrinsic motivation, for example to avoid a divorce or keep a job you'd otherwise lose.

I'm reading here "Autosuggestion is a psychological technique related to the placebo effect, ... . It is a form of self-induced suggestion in which individuals guide their own thoughts, feelings, or behavior. The technique is often used in self-hypnosis. ... [Dr. Parkyn] defined it as the process by which an individual consciously or unconsciously directs influence upon the involuntary mind."

So, unless you have a PhD in Psychology, I'd suggest we simply agree to disagree on this.

As far as DnD goes, I put more stock into what Pack Tactics says than what you say.

However, you can keep arguing, which appears to be the sole purpose here all along, if you wish. I will just continue to repeat the same loop over and over in response to you saying the same things over and over because we all know, repetition makes everything better.

 

[Maxperson]

The phenomenon of autosuggestion, as mention earlier, and other related phenomena suggest otherwise. You clearly can make yourself willing. And you can be forced to make yourself willing by outside influences rather than intrinsic motivation, for example to avoid a divorce or keep a job you'd otherwise lose.

I'm reading here "Autosuggestion is a psychological technique related to the placebo effect, ... . It is a form of self-induced suggestion in which individuals guide their own thoughts, feelings, or behavior. The technique is often used in self-hypnosis. ... [Dr. Parkyn] defined it as the process by which an individual consciously or unconsciously directs influence upon the involuntary mind."

So, unless you have a PhD in Psychology, I'd suggest we simply agree to disagree on this.

As far as DnD goes, I put more stock into what Pack Tactics says than what you say.

However, you can keep arguing, which appears to be the sole purpose here all along, if you wish. I will just continue to repeat the same loop over and over in response to you saying the same things over and over because we all know, repetition makes everything better.

I don't see autosuggestion or psychology in the rules. If you aren't going to accept RAI, we don't have to accept PhD articles.

Auto suggestion fails on it's face by the way, as it's not a conscious decision. And Suggestion makes the subject carry it out to the best of its ability. It can only cause conscious decisions to happen.