D&D 5E (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[FrogReaver]

To put this in perspective the shillelagh EK might do something like

Round 1: Web + Shillelagh
Reaction PAM attack

Round 2: Attack, bonus action attack, truestrike
Round 3: Attack, bonus action attack, truestrike

I don't see the Wrathful Smite focused EK matching turns like that at all. If he matches the Web then he's down damage. If he matches the damage then he's down control. It's worth noting that 2024 wrathful smite differs from 2014 in that the creature needed an action to attempt the save again in 2014, but no longer does in 2024.

 

[ECMO3]

IMO. If one takes True Strike, Shillelagh, and Polearm Master on an EK by level 7 then I think that version of EK can do very good damage. At that point just let your first spell be a control spell along with Shillelagh and forget wrathful. Then follow up with PAM attack routine the rest of the battle.

The main problem with PAM that early is it boosts Strength or Dex while Shilleleagh is using Intelligence.

Going with a straight standard Fighter PAM build to Strength 20 does substantially better damage at level 7 leaving Intelligence at 16, especially when you consider you don't pay the bonus action tax.

Not clear to me if Shillelagh should overwrite the d4 on the polearm master attack. I'll assume not for now. That comes out something like (assuming 60% base chance to hit):

Attack Action
attack 1: d10+4(mod)+2(dueling)
bonus action attack: d4+4(mod)+2(dueling)
attack 2: d10+4(mod)+2(dueling)+3.5(true strike)

Shilleleagh PAM vs Strength PAM
attack 1: d10+4(mod)+2(dueling) vs d8+5+2 (tied, but with a slightly better chance to hit with strength)
attack 2: d10+4(mod)+2(dueling)+3.5(true strike) vs d8+3+2+3.5 (Shilleleagh 2 DPR ahead)
bonus attack round 1: 0 vs 1d4+5+2 (Shilleleagh 9.5 DPR behind)
bonus action attack: d4+4(mod)+2(dueling) vs d4+5+2 (Shilleleagh 1DPR behind every round after 1st)

Your true strike attack will have a good chance of having advantage due to 2x topple attempts. ~59%

But if you are doing this it is better with just getting strength, and you get 2 attempts on the 1st round.

I think I'm more impressed with this version than your Wrathful Smite version. Especially since it better pairs with spells like Web or Tasha's (better control than Wrathful Smite provides, and better chance to land on that all important round 1, since they don't depend on any attack hitting to be able to use them).

Wrathful Smite is far better in play on an Eldritch Knight because it is not concentration and it does not take an action to cast and it is generally a more difficult save to make.

Wrathful smite is cast on a hit which comes with part of an attack so the target always has disadvantage on that save (after level 10).

Control spells are most effective early in a fight (with Wrathful Smite ideally at range, but still effective close), Web and THL are generally more effective spells than Wrathful Smite, but casting them on round 1, when they are most effective, means enemies do not have disadvantage unless you action surge and attack them first. They are also concentration spells, which wrathful smite isn't, meaning it can't be broken by damage and you can use it more than once even if it or another spell is already going.

IMO, tactical master on turn 1 is mostly overrated if your turn 1 is mostly going to be control spell and don't get adjacent (wanting to trigger the PAM reaction attack).

The reason I said Tactical Master was so useful with wrathful smite is due to the movement limitations imposed by the Frightened condition.

And then some encounters you won't need to start with a control spell (this version of EK has much better damage in that situation).

The thing with Wrathful Smite is you have a control spell while also having an attack, you don't have to give up one for the other and they always have disadvantage on the first save (after level 10).

To put this in perspective the shillelagh EK might do something like

Round 1: Web + Shillelagh
Reaction PAM attack

Round 2: Attack, bonus action attack, truestrike
Round 3: Attack, bonus action attack, truestrike

I don't see the Wrathful Smite focused EK matching turns like that at all. If he matches the Web then he's down damage. If he matches the damage then he's down control. It's worth noting that 2024 wrathful smite differs from 2014 in that the creature needed an action to attempt the save again in 2014, but no longer does in 2024.

THL is a better comparison because it is a single target and a 1st level spell. I also think in the 2024 rules, upcast THL is generally a better 2nd level spell than Web is. Not always but usually. If you compare to THL on 1st round with and without action surge:

THL: The enemy makes a normal saves or become incapacitated (concentration)
Wrathful Smite: Do around 20 damage total and then save at disadvantage or become frightened.

With WS you can repeat on round 2 and round 3 on other enemies because it is not concentration.

If you use action surge you can actually get off two control spells with WS while still attacking (once a day):

THL: Action Surge-attack then action-THL with disadvantage
Wrathful Smite and THL: Action surge, split your attacks, bad guy 1 Wrathful Smite with Disadvantage, bad guy 2 THL with disadvantage (assuming at least 2 hits)

The best Nova of the Eldritch Knight I've seen in tier 3 is actually with both Fey touched and Shadow Touched and using the following combo all in one turn: Action Surge (attack), Bonus action (wrathful Smite-disadvantage on save), Action (Dissonant Whispers-disadvantage on save), Warcaster spell AOO all on the same enemy

With both feats you can do that twice a day with 1 short rest using a Cantrip with the Warcaster AOO or once a day using a third leveled spell with the Warcaster AOO. In 1 turn it comes out to War Magic attack action, +4d6 damage+frightened+moved back their movement + lost reaction and you still have one more spell you would have cast on them.

 

[Horwath]

No I have a lot of time I am holding two things in my hand and one is not a shield, whether that is two weapons or a weapon and a lantern or a weapon and a magic item that does something.

Also the main reason for warcaster, especially on a build with spells is the opportunity attack spell. Using Truestrike or Booming Blade on an AOO is a lot better than just swinging a sword even if you are not going to use the spell slot. This is also why I would get dissonant Whispers on this build:

Action Surge-attack-attack-Truestrike
Action: dissonant Whispers (disadvantage on save)
Reaction AOO: Truestrike
Bonus action: Wrathful Smite (disadvantage on save)

That is one heck of a turn of combat and you can do it twice a day with Fey Touched (Dissonant Whispers) and Shadow Touched (wrathful smite).

I would try to utilize booming blade in combination with dissonant whispers.

 

[ECMO3]

I would try to utilize booming blade in combination with dissonant whispers.

Yeah that is an option, the issue is boosting your attack stat cuts into your save DC although it is an option, Truestrike enables you to concentrate on Intelligence. It also affords both ranged and melee attacks with Warmagic.

To circle back to the original start of this thread, my chagrin with 2024 EK is that I could not dump intelligence, dip Warlock and use Charisma-based Cantrips with War Magic. That is really ideal for an EK IMO. Get a pact weapon and you get a blade cantrip and truestrike on Charisma. Also get feat-based Charisma save spells for using with Eldritch Strike and use your EK slots to fuel them. Get spells with EK that does not rely on intelligence (Absorb Elements, Shield, Identify etc).

In any case the DM I wanted to play this with ruled "Wizard Cantrips" and "Wizard spells" are any spell that is on the Wizard list regardless of how you got it. So Truestrike through Magic Initiate-Charisma or Green Flame Blade through Warlock are "Wizard Cantrips", but Starry Wisp or Eldritch Blast aren't.

As a result I am planning an EK/Warlock. I am going to go Fighter 1/Warlock 1/Fighter 3/Warlock 2 then Fighter until at least level 13. I am also planning on picking up Agonizing Green Flame Blade and using it with War Magic, along with Truestrike from Magic Initiate.

Here is the PC at 1st level:

D&D Beyond Character Sheet

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[SoSaltySalt]

I will note that you are allowed to attack with Strength even when using Shillelagh

 

[Ancoulainn]

Overall I am pretty happy with the 2024 subclasses, but EK is an exception to this. I hate it.

Eldritch Knight was my favorite fighter subclass by far and it was the fighter I played the most with 2014 rules. Usually I dumped Intelligence, maxed Charisma and multiclassed with a Bard, Sorcerer or Warlock, usually with a 1-4 level dip in one of those.

When played that way in 2014 the class was awesome, Warmagic was not as effective as the Bladesinger extra attack but it was pretty darn fun. On the new EK, Warmagic gets a slight improvement and then a big nerf. It works with the attack action, not requiring an extra action, but it also only works with your Wizard spells. This means Eldritch Blast is not even usable with it and it means if you want to use it in combat you really need to have a good Intelligence, when most fighters dump intelligence.

I have been trying to put together a good EK build and I can't figure one that is going to work for me. I am having trouble figuring why I would ever play an Eldritch Knight when a Valor Bard is available.

You can do quite a few things that other Gish-builds can't do because of War Magic and Improved War Magic. For example, Action Surge or Haste do not allow you take the Magic Action, but as an Eldritch Knight, you can take the Attack Action and then substitute Cantrips and Spells for your attacks. And if you grab spells from the Wizard spell list via Magic Initiate, Fey-Touched, or Shadow-Touched, you can cast an enormous amount of spells at least once per long rest.

At level 20, you have 4 attack and can:

Attack Action: Cast Mind Sliver, cast Magic Missile (via Magic Initiate), make one Attack

Bonus Action: Wrathful Smite (via Shadow-Touched) with save at Disadvantage and -1d4

Haste: Take Attack Action and cast Booming Blade

Action Surge: Cast Mind Sliver, make one Attack, cast Thunderwave with save at Disadvantage and -1d4

Granted, you can't do this every turn and you can't do it until fairly late, but Eldritch Knights are still the only ones who can do it at all. And already at level 7, you can debuff with Mind Sliver, make an attack, and smite with Wrathful Smite with the save -1d4 and at level 10, the save is at disadvantage. With Tactical Master at level 9, you can also push them away. And if your dealing with a melee-only enemy, that's nothing to sneeze at. Again, granted, aside from Eldritch Strike and Tactical Master, the Valor Bard could do most of that as well and they could also cast a cantrip instead of the attack granted by Haste and would not be limited to Wizard cantrips, but they could not cast additional spells via Action Surge.

Also, if you're comparing a pure Valor Bard with a pure Eldritch Knight and don't consider multiclassing, you also have to consider Indomitable, Weapon Mastery, Fighting Styles, two additional ASIs/feats, and more attacks on one side and Magical Secrets and being a full caster on the other. Given the martials-caster-divide, it's easy to say that the latter is stronger, but if we wanted to play the strongest spellcaster, we'd be playing Chronurgy Wizard anyway.

You also have to consider the rather strange wording for the Valor Bard. Martial Training says "You can use a Simple or Martial weapon as a Spellcasting Focus to cast spells from your Bard spell list." This wording is different from your spellcasting feature which says "You can use a Musical Instrument as a Spellcasting Focus for your Bard spells." Bard spells and spells from your Bard spell list aren't the same if you consider Magical Secrets because Magical Secrets says "the chosen spells count as Bard spells for you", but it does not add them to the Bard spell list, meaning you couldn't use your weapon as a spellcasting focus for those spells. And we have to think that this wording is intentional because it is the first time they used this wording and it appears nowhere else, thus we cannot just ignore it and consider it oversight. For example, when you look at the Swords Bard, it says "If you’re proficient with a simple or martial melee weapon, you can use it as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells." At your table, you can, of course, overrule it, but RAW - and that's what we're talking about here - it is what it is. And RAW, it matters when a spell you want to cast has a material component, you're using a weapon and a shield, have no free hand to touch your component pouch, and your weapon does not work as a spellcasting focus for the spell because War Caster only helps with the somatic component, not the material component.

 

[Ancoulainn]

I would try to utilize booming blade in combination with dissonant whispers.

Depending on how you look at it.

For one, you cannot cast Dissonant Whispers through Improved War Magic because it's not a Wizard spell, so you have to use the Magic Action to do it. That does not mean you can't do it; it just means you can't do it that way.

But the second part of Booming Blade does not trigger from Dissonant Whispers because Booming Blade says "If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then..." and the movement from Dissonant Whispers is not willing movement according to Jeremy Crawford via Tweet on 4/26/2016. However, it would trigger if/when they then decide to run towards you again to attack you. But they could also decide to stay where Dissonant Whispers took them and attack from range if possible and not trigger the second part of Booming Blade.

And finally, it poses the question whether you can cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack at all because War Caster says "When a creature provokes an Opportunity Attack from you by leaving your reach, you can take a Reaction to cast a spell at the creature rather than making an Opportunity Attack. The spell must have a casting time of one action and must target only that creature." And Booming Blade has a range of self. Fortunately, SAC clarifies this with regards to True Strike which also has a range of self and says " Similarly, unless a special feature allows you to do so, you can’t cast True Strike when making an Opportunity Attack." 2014 SAC said with regards to Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade "Like other spells, these cantrips require the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action, and they can’t be used to make an opportunity attack, unless a special feature allows you to do so." That "special feature" is most likely War Caster.

 

[ECMO3]

You can do quite a few things that other Gish-builds can't do because of War Magic and Improved War Magic. For example, Action Surge or Haste do not allow you take the Magic Action, but as an Eldritch Knight, you can take the Attack Action and then substitute Cantrips and Spells for your attacks. And if you grab spells from the Wizard spell list via Magic Initiate, Fey-Touched, or Shadow-Touched, you can cast an enormous amount of spells at least once per long rest.

Well my DM rules (and some sage advice indicates) that being on a spell list makes something a spell for that class. So my Warlock/Eldritch Knight has Truestrike, Agonizing Green Flame Blade and Eldritch Blast from being a 6th level Warlock, but Truestrike and GFB are "Wizard spells" and therefore work with Warmagic. EB is not and if I cast EB I do not get to attack. She is a Tiefling and also has Firebolt, which is again a "Wizard spell"

At level 20, you have 4 attack and can:

Attack Action: Cast Mind Sliver, cast Magic Missile (via Magic Initiate), make one Attack

Bonus Action: Wrathful Smite (via Shadow-Touched) with save at Disadvantage and -1d4

Haste: Take Attack Action and cast Booming Blade

Action Surge: Cast Mind Sliver, make one Attack, cast Thunderwave with save at Disadvantage and -1d4

Yeah so this is fine, but the way I do it is use Action Surge first (nefore you take your action), attack and then cast a spell with your action to get the benefit of Eldritch Strike.

I also don't really like either Haste or Mind Sliver, there are better spells. For a cantrip something with more damage, for a 3rd level spell something with more effectiveness and no downside when it ends.

At level 11+ I really like the combo I mentioned above:
Action Surge: Truestrike or Blade Cantrip, attack, attack
Action: Dissonant Whispers (save with disadvantage)
Reaction: Truestrike
Bonus Action: Wrathful Smite (save with disadvantage)

IF I am going to use a 3rd level slot I really like Fear:
Action Surge: attack-attack-nick attack-blade cantrip make these attacks all against different people
Actoion: Fear (anyone who got hit on the attack action saves with disadvantage)

Also, if you're comparing a pure Valor Bard with a pure Eldritch Knight and don't consider multiclassing, you also have to consider Indomitable, Weapon Mastery, Fighting Styles, two additional ASIs/feats, and more attacks on one side and Magical Secrets and being a full caster on the other.

I would not consider playing either of those subclasses without a multiclass.

Given the martials-caster-divide, it's easy to say that the latter is stronger, but if we wanted to play the strongest spellcaster, we'd be playing Chronurgy Wizard anyway.

I think a Goblin Enchantment Wizard is the most powerful single-classed full caster generally from level 2-20. They are not the strongest at every one of those levels, but they are generally the strongest overall when you consider all of those levels.

 

[Ancoulainn]

Well my DM rules (and some sage advice indicates) that being on a spell list makes something a spell for that class. So my Warlock/Eldritch Knight has Truestrike, Agonizing Green Flame Blade and Eldritch Blast from being a 6th level Warlock, but Truestrike and GFB are "Wizard spells" and therefore work with Warmagic. EB is not and if I cast EB I do not get to attack. She is a Tiefling and also has Firebolt, which is again a "Wizard spell"

If that's what your DM rules, cool. With the potential of using a heavy weapon with Great Weapon Master, I, however, do not see a major benefit in having Eldritch Blast on this build, though. Instead of investing in Charisma on top of Intelligence, you could just invest in Strength. And with the new rules involving heavy weapons requiring a minimum strength score of 13 and Full Plate requiring a Strength score of 15, this build gets quite mad. If you dump Intelligence and just get spells without save or attack roll via Eldritch Knight and do everything else via Warlock, it gets a bit easier. If you want more damage, going the Strength route is better. If you more higher level spells, multiclassing into Wizard is better after level 7.

Yeah so this is fine, but the way I do it is use Action Surge first (nefore you take your action), attack and then cast a spell with your action to get the benefit of Eldritch Strike.

That certainly allows you to cast a leveled spell beyond 2nd level and really benefits your build because we multiclassing into Warlock, you may not get Improved War Magic.

I also don't really like either Haste or Mind Sliver, there are better spells. For a cantrip something with more damage, for a 3rd level spell something with more effectiveness and no downside when it ends.

You generally cast Mind Sliver for the d4 debuff which stacks with other debuffs like Bane. I'd use it depending on how important it is to me that my next spell lands. If you really want to hit with Dissonant Whispers and the target is a CR 17 Death Knight with a +9 to Wisdom saves and Advantage on saves against spells, just Disadvantage won't cut it. And a CR 17 Death Knight is just barely a deadly encounter for 4 level 12 characters. But fortunately, their Intelligence save is just +1 and just right for the Mind Sliver debuff.

And yeah, Death Knights are immune to the frightened condition as well, but fortunately, Dissonant Whispers doesn't use the Frightened condition. Command would work as well here and might even be better if you want to burn the targets turn.

If damage is more important, Toll the Dead works too and you don't need Spell Sniper for it when casting it in melee as you would for Firebolt, for example.

At level 11+ I really like the combo I mentioned above:
Action Surge: Truestrike or Blade Cantrip, attack, attack
Action: Dissonant Whispers (save with disadvantage)
Reaction: Truestrike
Bonus Action: Wrathful Smite (save with disadvantage)

Since Dissonant Whispers doesn't trigger the second part of Booming Blade according to Jeremy Crawford, this still works really nicely, especially against melee only characters. And in all other cases, Booming Blade deals more damage than True Strike (d8 vs d6). If 3rd party material is allowed, Vengeful Blade can also be a nice option against casters.

And since Dissonant Whispers isn't on the Wizard spell list, you'd have to do it that way anyway because it doesn't work with Improved War Magic.

IF I am going to use a 3rd level slot I really like Fear:
Action Surge: attack-attack-nick attack-blade cantrip make these attacks all against different people
Actoion: Fear (anyone who got hit on the attack action saves with disadvantage)

With the right positioning, that can work quite well as long as you're not in a campaign with a lot of immunity to the Frightened condition. That, of course, requires that you still fight hordes of creatures at that level which isn't too common.

I would not consider playing either of those subclasses without a multiclass.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to. But Valor Bard with Shillelagh or a Lute of Thunderous Thumping, if you can get your hands on it, works quite well. But 2 levels of Warlock really improve the damage output, true. In that case, I would start with Warlock, though, because, while Dex saves are more frequent, Wisdom saves usually are worse and being paralyzed or charmed isn't fun.

I think a Goblin Enchantment Wizard is the most powerful single-classed full caster generally from level 2-20. They are not the strongest at every one of those levels, but they are generally the strongest overall when you consider all of those levels.

I assume you refer to 2014 rules since all classes now get their subclasses at level 3. I was really surprised to hear that, because you don't hear somebody stand up for enchanters very often. For a good reason!

Enchantment isn't bad, but I don't think they even come close to Chronurgy at any level. In fact, if consider the exploits Necromancy Wizards can do with Inured to Undeath, Create Magen, Aid, and Heroes' Feast plus how they change the action economy, how valuable Divination Wizards can be, not just with Portent but with having nearly infinite spell slots to figure out where the party needs to go, what the new Illusion Wizard can do, particularly at level 14 which can lead to default kills if used right, the new Bladesinger which is nearly unkillable if played right, I wouldn't even rank them a top 5 subclass. And when I consider Peace Clerics, Twilight Clerics, or Eloquence Bards, Enchanters don't make the cut either.

 

[Zardnaar]

If that's what your DM rules, cool. With the potential of using a heavy weapon with Great Weapon Master, I however do not see a major benefit in having Eldritch Blast on this build, though. Instead of investing in Charisma on top of Intelligence, you could just invest in Strength. And with the new rules involving heavy weapons requiring a minimum strength score of 13 and Full Plate requiring a Strength score of 15, this build gets quite mad. If you dump Intelligence and just get spells without save or attack roll via Eldritch Knight and do everything else via Warlock, it gets a bit easier. If you want more damage, going the Strength route is better. If you more higher level spells, multiclassing into Wizard is better after level 7.

That certainly allows you to cast a leveled spell beyond 2nd level and really benefits your build because we multiclassing into Warlock, you may not get Improved War Magic.

You generally cast Mind Sliver for the d4 debuff which stacks with other debuffs like Bane. I'd use it depending on how important it is to me that my next spell lands. If damage is more important, Toll the Dead works too and you don't need Spell Sniper for it when casting it in melee as you would for Firebolt, for example.

Since Dissonant Whispers doesn't trigger the second part of Booming Blade according to Jeremy Crawford, this still works really nicely, especially against melee only characters. And in all other cases, Booming Blade deals more damage than True Strike (d8 vs d6). If 3rd party material is allowed, Vengeful Blade can also be a nice option against casters.

And since Dissonant Whispers isn't on the Wizard spell list, you'd have to do it that way anyway because it doesn't work with Improved War Magic.

With the right positioning, that can work quite well as long as you're not in a campaign with a lot of immunity to the Frightened condition. That, of course, requires that you still fight hordes of creatures at that level which isn't too common.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to.

I assume you refer to 2014 rules since all classes now get their subclasses at level 3. I was really surprised to hear that, but you don't hear that often.

Enchantment isn't bad, but I don't think they even come close to Chronurgy at any level. In fact, if consider the exploits Necromancy Wizards can do with Inured to Undeath, Create Magen, Aid, and Heroes' Feast plus how they change the action economy, how valuable Divination Wizards can be, not just with Portent but with having nearly infinite spell slots to figure out where the party needs to go, what the new Illusion Wizard can do, particularly at level 14 which can lead to default kills if used right, the new Bladesinger which is nearly unkillable if played right, I wouldn't even rank them a top 5 subclass. And when I consider Peace Clerics, Twilight Clerics, or Eloquence Bards, Enchanters don't make the cut either.

Its tge lvl 2 and 10abilities. Free twinned hold person, hold monster etc.

Its really good just takes a while to get there.

New enchanted no idea.

If you MC I assume you're using medium armor, high casting stat 14 dex and con.

Dex based also works swap true strike for booming blade or GFB. If unavailable and hard ass DM maybe look elsewhere eg Paladin or MC warlock charisma based.