D&D General Not Railroad, Not Sandbox ... What else is there?

[pemerton]

The total freedom as in the idea of a “sandbox game”for a player to take their in game characters and to do whatever , whenever and however they please at any given moment is an illusionary and ultimately counter productive idea to what a RPG is.

Because, although a player can desire for and direct their character to do exactly what they want them to. This is not conducive to a game designed around teamwork and group goal completion. Even if one were playing a game with only one player and a DM, it would still not work within the structure of a game. That total free form freedom only works for an individual within their own imagination. No game needed.

Are you familiar with Apocalypse World? In A Wicked Age? Even Classic Traveller?

I know this is in the D&D subforum, but you made a claim about all RPGs.

 

[Maxperson]

It is actually one of many issues with” sandbox” play as described, on these threads.

That had nothing to do with Sandbox, though. You get me into a game where things are linear and my paladin could(but wouldn't) do the same thing. That was a player issue, not a Sandbox issue.

 

[Torranocca]

By you, perhaps, but I have never seen anyone else describe play like this as sandbox play.

Sounds like naked power gaming which is common here and all over the web. I believe most GMs will discourage this type of play rather than arms race with them.

The concept you elude to as in “ arms race” has nothing to do with the situation I was writing about, whatsoever. The player was not power gaming or min/ maximg at all.( I have delt with plenty of those and rules lawyering over the decades)
The player explained to me that he intended to repay the weapons smith in spades, after he won fortune and fame. I of course broadly advised him of the possible ramifications of his actions before he committed to them. It is not the DMs place to force players to play sensibly and it is not an adversarial relationship between players and DM that is fostered in game I run.
This is an example of what can often happen if you play hands off on character choice and do truest free open play.

 

[Torranocca]

That had nothing to do with Sandbox, though. You get me into a game where things are linear and my paladin could(but wouldn't) do the same thing. That was a player issue, not a Sandbox issue.

You seem to me, again like others, to be touching on the real underlying issues I am alluding too. “Sand box/ Railroad” is a false dichotomy, neither are the issue because neither exist as many in these discussions seem to believe. The issues are more closely related to how more modern players and obviously, the game designers of WotC era D&D have brought concepts from video games and comic book/ movies superhero’s into a gaming structure where they are a mismatch.
Older games were run on a premise that players wanted to create characters that, through their deeds and adventures, would eventually become renowned heroes.
From 3.5 D&D onward, the games ran under the premise that player characters started out as defectors heros and automatically obtained the mantel of Super Hero’s by virtue of not dying. A massive amount of reward for little to no effort, this fed( In my long years of observation while running games) a sense of entitlement among many players that the DMs owe everyone else their efforts and attention while they themselves show up to sessions with little to no idea what went on in the last meeting beside some clever remark or joke they made. Then spend the new sessions messing with their phones, combing endless expansion books for new feats and advantages to stack, and asking what is going on when it is their characters turn to act. If they then do something completely random and do not get the positive result they want, the game is not “sand box” enough. If their random actions or decisions go badly for their characters” this is a railroad/ choo choo plot and it doesn’t matter what I do!”
This has been unique to D&D as far as I have observed
I’ve also run BESM,Fading Suns, Riddle of Steel, participated in Shadow Run,GURPS and Exalted. The issues above did not come up in those systems. Although I will note, power- gamers flocked to Palladium’s RIFTS games like bees to honey

 

[payn]

The concept you elude to as in “ arms race” has nothing to do with the situation I was writing about, whatsoever. The player was not power gaming or min/ maximg at all.( I have delt with plenty of those and rules lawyering over the decades)
The player explained to me that he intended to repay the weapons smith in spades, after he won fortune and fame. I of course broadly advised him of the possible ramifications of his actions before he committed to them. It is not the DMs place to force players to play sensibly and it is not an adversarial relationship between players and DM that is fostered in game I run.
This is an example of what can often happen if you play hands off on character choice and do truest free open play.

Trying to steal and kill their way into a holy avenger at level 1 isnt power gaming? Also, none of which, explains how sandbox play has anything to do with this.

I am done here.

 

[Maxperson]

You seem to me, again like others, to be touching on the real underlying issues I am alluding too. “Sand box/ Railroad” is a false dichotomy, neither are the issue because neither exist as many in these discussion seem to believe. The issues are more closely related to how more modern players have brought concepts from video games and comic book/ movies superhero’s into a gaming structure where they are a mismatch.
Older games were run on a premise that players wanted to create characters that, through their deeds and adventures, would eventually become renowned heroes.
From 3.5 D&as onward, the games ran under the premise that player characters started out as heros and automatically obtained the mantel of Super Hero’s by virtue of not dying. A massive amount of reward for little to no effort,

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Sandbox and Railroad games are. You are correct that it's a False Dichotomy to reduce the game types to those two, but your examples have nothing to do with either.

Mismatches, starting as super heroes, old school, and whatever other types of characters you want to talk about are not relevant to the game type. You can run Sandbox and Railroad with all of those. You can play either and want a lot of reward for little effort, or little reward for lots of effort. Sandbox and Railroad are DM styles, not player styles, though players can prefer games of a type.

 

[Torranocca]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Sandbox and Railroad games are. You are correct that it's a False Dichotomy to reduce the game types to those two, but your examples have nothing to do with either.

Mismatches, starting as super heroes, old school, and whatever other types of characters you want to talk about are not relevant to the game type. You can run Sandbox and Railroad with all of those. You can play either and want a lot of reward for little effort, or little reward for lots of effort. Sandbox and Railroad are DM styles, not player styles, though players can prefer games of a type.

I sense we are talking in circles and I do not agree with your assessment. All games have a balance of freedom and structure or the game would be unplayable. The dichotomy, as I have stated before is false. It comes down to a matter of individual subjective judgement and not a “ style” at all. This is how I have experienced it in over forty years of running RPGs , ten years of that as a Gamestore owner/ operator hosting games six to Seven days a week for many hundreds of players. I add this not to add weight to my experience as I am not trying to convince anyone I am right. There is no argument to win because I’m not arguing. I truly believe there are many subtle different ways for players to play and game masters to run the game. Some of these ways however are a poor fit for the D&D systems as written and intended.

 

[Torranocca]

Trying to steal and kill their way into a holy avenger at level 1 isnt power gaming? Also, none of which, explains how sandbox play has anything to do with this.

I am done here.

I sense you are annoyed by our differences in outlook. I am sorry it comes to that. “Sandbox” as describe in the discussions on this forum denotes a freer form of player interaction in a reactive setting without pre determined outcomes and forced paths to take( obvious or obfuscated in ralation to weather then players sense it or not) as in “ Railroad”
I am not dense or being argumentative, just stating again…. These concepts don’t actually work in the context of the game and are in truth a false dichotomy. The game must be played as a balance of both and neither to play the game at all.
Players given absolute freedom go sideways rapidly 100% of the time in my experience. Players forced to play in a one track linear game without real choice or meaningful effect on the plot, die of boredom rapidly, and rightly so.

 

[Torranocca]

Are you familiar with Apocalypse World? In A Wicked Age? Even Classic Traveller?

I know this is in the D&D subforum, but you made a claim about all RPGs.

 

[Torranocca]

I am not making claims of anything thing. Just sharing my experiences and thoughts on primarily D&D. No need for pedantry. In the context of discussion about various D&D editions”RPGs” is descriptive not all encompassing I do address other RPGs in a later post.