D&D 5E (2014) Not upgrading? What version of D&D 5e are you sticking with?

[SkidAce]

Seems a bit mean to not at least let monk players use the 2024 rules. Their class is finally good!

Totally agreed.

 

[J-H]

My experience has always been that the 2014 monk is fine, as long as the DM lets the players have magic items. Particularly with the Tasha's monk dedicated weapon ACF, they are good. A few more ki points would be nice, but that's about it.

 

[delericho]

5.0e for me, but mostly by default. If I do find myself running a game for another group, I'll probably update to the 2024 ruleset at that time. Unless the 2034 rules are out by then...

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't actually understand the complaints against the 2014 Monk. I think it's the best version of monk I'd seen when it came out.

It has incredibly good, unparalleled magical defenses. Same with mobility. Its at-will damage isn't top tier, but it's respectable. And its short rest based ki means that by 6th or 7th level it has enough to use 1 point per round, and that only gets better. By high level you are always getting that extra attack with Flurry of blows, and stun-locking foes, and being wherever you want on the battlefield, while being really really hard to effect with magic.

My biggest guess as to why people think it isn't good is not following the 2 short rest/day assumption. Like warlock, it is designed to be heavily short rest dependant. It is assumed you are getting your 18-21 rounds of combat/adventuring day, and you have Levelx3 ki to use. If there is a mismatch between that and a group's play style, it isn't because the class is weak. Same goes with warlock. With the right amount of rests they effectively have the same amount of spell slot levels as other full casters, plus all the invocations to compensate for the lack of lots of low level slots for utility purposes.

The other possibility could be just comparing DPR to the absolute best competition, but you can't have top tier DPR and do everything the monk does without being overpowered.

Sure, I think the monk can feel like they can't do much before about level 5 (although the Way of the Open Hand one in our Lost Mine of Phandalin campaign didn't have any problems) so maybe they could have had some features redistributed, but once the game gets going using the default assumptions they are not underperformers.

At the request of a player, for another recent campaign I did import the 2024 rules that make using Patient Defense and Step of the Wind better, not because I think the class needs it, but just because those options never got used since their Flurry of Blows competition was so good, and now they are a situationally useful option.

The -5/+10 feats exist and Monks can't use them really. They get blown out on danage.

Basically they're run in do some damage. They whiff on stunning strike a lot (con saves are the worst to target).

Then the GWM wades in and outright kills something. Better yet the GWM fighter is an archer instead with sharpshooter.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The -5/+10 feats exist and Monks can't use them really. They get blown out on danage.

Basically they're run in do some damage. They whiff on stunning strike a lot (con saves are the worst to target).

Then the GWM wades in and outright kills something. Better yet the GWM fighter is an archer instead with sharpshooter.

Sure. But using GWM effectively wasn't really intended design, since feats are technically optional and the game is designed to be balanced for casual players. You have to compare classes without adding in the optional rules of feats or multiclassing, or I don't think you get a good idea of their balance.

Now...when feats throw off class balance, my solution is to make more feats and tweak some of the existing ones.

 

[TwoSix]

Sure. But using GWM effectively wasn't really intended design, since feats are technically optional and the game is designed to be balanced for casual players. You have to compare classes without adding in the optional rules of feats or multiclassing, or I don't think you get a good idea of their balance.

20+ years on Internet discussion tells me doing comparisons without the commonly used options simply doesn't happen, or at least doesn't move the needle.

The fact that Monk might be balanced without SS/GWM in the equation is both true and irrelevant as a discussion topic.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure. But using GWM effectively wasn't really intended design, since feats are technically optional and the game is designed to be balanced for casual players. You have to compare classes without adding in the optional rules of feats or multiclassing, or I don't think you get a good idea of their balance.

Now...when feats throw off class balance, my solution is to make more feats and tweak some of the existing ones.

That's the wrong assumption.

How are people actually playing. Never saw a table without feats tbh.

I played a monk. You need to know what youre doing and it depends a lot on rolled stats vs point bye.

Theres two good subclasses I. 5.0. Open hand and mercy. My monk had rolled stats and I picked monk because I rolled well.

Newbies think stunning strikes great. I hardly used it. You have to figure out when the best time to use the rest of your abilities.

Class is good level 1-4 gets good again around 14.

Its thst level 5 to 13 range subclass depending, player skill dependent, DM dependent, and stat generation dependent more than the rest imho.

And a lot of players nova off rest and take 0 short rests.

I surprised my DM with my Monk he thought they were bad. I was taking the short rests, knew what I was doing and had good scores.

 

[J-H]

I houseruled GWM & SS to only give +2 damage (like a fighting style) long ago. Fixed the big complaint some have.

"open hand and mercy are the only good subclasses"
Shadow Monk waves hello from on top of the enemy castle

 

[Zardnaar]

I houseruled GWM & SS to only give +2 damage (like a fighting style) long ago. Fixed the big complaint some have.

"open hand and mercy are the only good subclasses"
Shadow Monk waves hello from on top of the enemy castle

Shadow hands the next "gois" monk outclassed by the other 2.

But then you have the rest.

 

[Stalker0]

Seems a bit mean to not at least let monk players use the 2024 rules. Their class is finally good!

I am curious how the 2024 monk holds up against 2014 classes. I've been in the camp that the monk was weak in 2014, is it balanced now, or is it OP against toehr 2014 classes I wonder.