November 16th release for Web-based Character Builder

[darjr]

Fixed that for you.

It's great for me. I can access from nigh anywhere and mac users will be able to also. It may suck for people on a plane (which affects how many really?) but basically every sleezebag motel even offers free wi-fi these days. It's a good move for more people than it hurts, which would be the goal.

It's in Silverlight. It could have supported an offline mode as well as been online for Macs.

 

[bargle0]

As a DM the requirements are really Rules compendium, and monster vault. The DM's kit is nice, and filled with cool advice, but nothing in it is absolutely needed to play the game.

The DM's Kit is the only Essentials resource that has rules for things like encounter and skill challenge construction. It is no less a requirement than the DMG. In many ways, it is inferior to the DMG. That Essentials is cheaper than the core material is an illusion. It is easier to get in to, but that's only because the Essentials characters are much easier to play. It's an overall positive move for the game, but don't let the marketing lies fool you.

Let me put it to you this way: three years ago, I bought my nephews the core set plus a 1" circle die punch so they could play D&D 4e. In total, I spent $98 retail. To achieve the same breadth of functionality, I'd have to spend $130 retail on two Heroes books, the RC, the DM Kit, and the Monster Vault. If you suppose that I only needed to buy them one Heroes book, then I'd be at $110 retail. It's not a terrible deal because the enclosed adventures and tokens are actually pretty nice. However, it's not any cheaper.

I've never been screwed. Sorry you have.

You've been screwed by them. Wizards has spent the last 6-9 months using our subscription money to replicate functionality that we already had. They could have designed the CB to operate in an off-line mode with Silverlight using the downloaded database, but they did not. The last six months of Dragon content has done little more than contribute to feat- and background-bloat. For instance, take that Wilden article today. The flavor of the article makes no sense. The feats contained therein are grotesquely situational. This article is of no use to anyone. It might be one thing if this article were an outlier, but garbage like this shows up in Dragon every single week. It's telling that the most interesting things on the Wizards website last week were the free previews of Essentials material. Outside of DDI, our books have been rendered nigh-worthless by updates, including updates for books released in the very same month as the book itself. At this point, it's clear that Wizards isn't play-testing their games very well. I don't think they even have a good grasp on how their own game works. I don't know about you, but if I spend $30 on a RPG book, I expect a certain standard of quality that simply isn't met by Wizards.

I suppose it's all right, though, if you think that sort of treatment from Wizards is acceptable. I, for one, am beginning to grow weary.

Whether some people have been screwing Wizards by subscribing for a month, downloading everything and then cancelling is a separate issue entirely.

I could get hit by a bus while crossing the street. Since there is no bus coming, and the light is red, I figure it's a safe bet that I won't get hit by a bus while crossing the street.

When there is actually a bus coming, and I'm crossing against the light... I'll worry then!

Your analogy works as long as no bus is runs the light. I merely think we should keep our eyes on the oncoming traffic while we cross the road.

To make the analogy ridiculous, there is a bus: it's the subscription-only character builder. Hopefully it will stop at the light. Maybe it won't. My point is that we should be aware of the bus. Instead, you insist that it will always stop at the light.

If you really want to- hey go for it... I just think it's kind of irrational.

It's also irrational to mindlessly apologize for an entity that does not have one's interests in mind.

We are at an impasse. Where you see no evidence of moving to a subscription-only model, I see them making a CB that works on a subscription-only model. Where you see continued support for physical products, I see them flailing about in desperation because the old splatbook treadmill no longer works. I don't think further discourse between us on this topic will be productive.

 

[Herschel]

How is WOTC to blame for the limitations Jobs imposed on his own product?

Mike Mearls is Steve Jobs' bowling partner, duh!

 

[bargle0]

And this is exactly why they probably won't listen to you... because you freely admit that you think WotC has and probably always are "lying" to you and "screwing" you... and yet you continue to give them your money and use their product.

Your actions are not equaling your words.

Thus one of two things can be divined from this... either you're an addict who just can't quit the game despite knowing how bad it is for you (to which WotC's response should be that it's not up to them to police your actions and you need to bear personal responsibility)... or else your words are uselessly hyperbolic and you don't really believe that their sins of lying and screwing you over actually hold any weight for you (because if they did, you wouldn't still play the game).

Or it could be that the enjoyment that I get from playing the game has previously outweighed the negative qualities, and the continued ill behavior from Wizards is finally putting me in to a position where I no longer like it. Honestly, I have been buying less Wizards stuff lately, because I'm sick and tired of the poor quality control. It's telling that they waited until after the first wave of subscribers had already re-upped, including me, before making this announcement.

It's not like any of us can pretend that they haven't been lying to us, or giving us an inferior product in DDI. Calling them out for those things is simply telling the truth. Paolo today stated that the complaints about the web CB have caused them to change their priorities in terms of when certain features will be implemented, so complaining does work. They do listen. Unless Paolo is just lying again.

Thanks for putting me in to a false dichotomy between addict and hypocrite, though. Any doubt that I should give no weight to your opinion has now been dispelled.

 

[darjr]

What I don't get is why was the latest old CB update done? It seemed to me to be half baked and did more harm than good. I almost wish I could have skipped that update.

Almost. I'm probably done so I don't really need it anymore.

 

[Scribble]

The DM's Kit is the only Essentials resource that has rules for things like encounter and skill challenge construction.

Those are in the RC. They're expanded on in the DM's Kit sure, but the actual rules are in the RC.

It is no less a requirement than the DMG. In many ways, it is inferior to the DMG.

Again since the rules are in the other books, I'm saying it's pretty much a good buy maybe, and a good idea, but by no means "necessary."

Whether or not it's inferior to the old DMG is... subjective.

That Essentials is cheaper than the core material is an illusion. It is easier to get in to, but that's only because the Essentials characters are much easier to play. It's an overall positive move for the game, but don't let the marketing lies fool you.

It's easier to get into for more reasons outside of the rules.

Less for a single person to have to buy.

Clear avenues of explanation as to what is available/needed for a store to carry.

Clear avenue/explanation as to what products match your "place" in the game.

Easy to use products filled with everything needed to use them. (IE the box has the adventure, the maps, the tokens...)

Nothing to do with marketing "lies," and everything to do with what they've actually done.

Let me put it to you this way: three years ago, I bought my nephews the core set plus a 1" circle die punch so they could play D&D 4e. In total, I spent $98 retail. To achieve the same breadth of functionality, I'd have to spend $130 retail on two Heroes books, the RC, the DM Kit, and the Monster Vault. If you suppose that I only needed to buy them one Heroes book, then I'd be at $110 retail. It's not a terrible deal because the enclosed adventures and tokens are actually pretty nice. However, it's not any cheaper.

You get more for your money for starters, and we're still disagreeing on how needed the DM's kit is.

And again I said- it depends on how you want to get into it. You can get into it very inexpensively, or spend a lot on it. They've opened it up, to let you customize a lot more.

You've been screwed by them.

No... I haven't. I'm sorry you feel you have.

Wizards has spent the last 6-9 months using our subscription money to replicate functionality that we already had. They could have designed the CB to operate in an off-line mode with Silverlight using the downloaded database, but they did not.

Doesn't bother me

The last six months of Dragon content has done little more than contribute to feat- and background-bloat. For instance, take that Wilden article today. The flavor of the article makes no sense. The feats contained therein are grotesquely situational. This article is of no use to anyone. It might be one thing if this article were an outlier, but garbage like this shows up in Dragon every single week. It's telling that the most interesting things on the Wizards website last week were the free previews of Essentials material.

This is subjective opinion. You're welcome to any opinion you want. You dislike the content they are providing you. This isn't "screwing you" or me, or anyone else. It's just that you don't like the ontent. It's not like they're sitting on "better" content twisting their evil mustaches and laughing as they release inferior content for some reason.

Outside of DDI, our books have been rendered nigh-worthless by updates, including updates for books released in the very same month as the book itself. At this point, it's clear that Wizards isn't play-testing their games very well. I don't think they even have a good grasp on how their own game works. I don't know about you, but if I spend $30 on a RPG book, I expect a certain standard of quality that simply isn't met by Wizards.

We can get into an argument about this in another thread... Suffice it to say I preffer the model that submits updates rather then ignoring them until the system overloads and they have to reset to a new edition.

If this update process keeps us from a new edition down the road- yay!

I suppose it's all right, though, if you think that sort of treatment from Wizards is acceptable. I, for one, am beginning to grow weary.

That's your right... It's probably not the game for you. It's a taste thing. Some would rather the game be released and that be it. Others want the problems tracked/updated.

Whether some people have been screwing Wizards by subscribing for a month, downloading everything and then cancelling is a separate issue entirely.

What's that have to do with anything?

Your analogy works as long as no bus is runs the light. I merely think we should keep our eyes on the oncoming traffic while we cross the road.

Sure... but keeping an eye open and actively fearing are two different things.

To make the analogy ridiculous, there is a bus: it's the subscription-only character builder. Hopefully it will stop at the light. Maybe it won't. My point is that we should be aware of the bus. Instead, you insist that it will always stop at the light.

Sure, be aware of the bus... That's fine and rational. But fearing it's going to hit you because it exists when it hasn't run any red lights, the driver is alert, and the brakes work... is irrational.

It's also irrational to mindlessly apologize for an entity that does not have one's interests in mind.

Who's doing that? I'm presenting evidence to show where I'm coming from. No mindlessness involved.

We are at an impasse. Where you see no evidence of moving to a subscription-only model, I see them making a CB that works on a subscription-only model. Where you see continued support for physical products, I see them flailing about in desperation because the old splatbook treadmill no longer works. I don't think further discourse between us on this topic will be productive.

Nothing about subscription model. I was talking about digital only model.

I think we are at an "impasse."

I get tired of statements like "mindless apologizing" being applied to anything that isn't painting WoTC in a negative light.

 

[renau1g]

and Paolo's interest in speaking to 3rd party app developers

Does anyone have a quote/link for this? Also, is Paolo in a position to make these statements? He's a developer right? Most of the time developers don't make this call.

Also, has this been vetted through Legal/corporate? The last time he made statements about supplemental tools, they were not, so I'd hate to see those misunderstandings happen again.

These last questions are likely best answered by [MENTION=56746]mudbunny[/MENTION] as he's the only one who may know more than the average user.

 

[darjr]

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Hey all. So I wanted to do two things - clear the air a bit and let you guys know that we're definitely listening to everything people are saying in these threads.

As to clearing the air - When I said we were back on schedule for updates, I meant that from what I could see, we were on schedule to have an update each month for the coming months. As I'm sure you all know, I actually can't predict the future, but it looked like we had a solid schedule for updates and I just wanted to express that. I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer on that point, and that it led to confusion. It was never my intention to imply that we would have an update on the first Tuesday of every month for the foreseeable future.

And I really do think of what we're doing with the Character Builder as an update. We are updating it to a web-tool version. So with the way I'm thinking about this, we have an update this month that includes updating to a web tool and the Dark Sun and Essentials content. But I can definitely see the other side of things where people feel like it's a totally different tool, specifically since you're still able to use the old tool going forward.

By sharing the fact that we were working on web-based tools I was hoping to give people a little peek at what was coming, not to confuse them further, and definitely not to mislead them. I can definitely say the same for Paolo - he was here only to shine some light, give whatever information he could, and help clear things up when possible. He was not trying to mislead you.

So in the end, all I can do is say I'm sorry to those who are confused or feel misled. We have had an update each month, and this month's update will include some changes to how the CB works as well as new content.

Edit: Please note there is an update to this quote to fix the incorrect phrase 'We have had an update each month'.

 

[evilref]

Does anyone have a quote/link for this? Also, is Paolo in a position to make these statements? He's a developer right? Most of the time developers don't make this call.

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Given the high likelihood that this is him asking what info said tool hooks into, whether it's xml etc. etc. then it's entirely understandable for him to be doing this.

Moreover, as I clearly said above, it was a request for people to contact him not a statement.

He hasn't said 'It will work with X'. He has made statements about the file format, what may or may not have changed for it. This is all stuff he's absolutely in a position to state.

 

[Saracenus]

Mike Mearls is Steve Jobs' bowling partner, duh!

Mearls ruined Apple!