November 16th release for Web-based Character Builder

[Mirtek]

My argument continues here that you're making a jump here based on nothing but fear of what COULD happen, not based on any actual signs.

Funny, that's what some people said when we said "look, they're going to turn the CB into a pure online tools and that's why they are "late" on the CB updates - because they never planed to do them at all".

And this is exactly why they probably won't listen to you... because you freely admit that you think WotC has and probably always are "lying" to you and "screwing" you... and yet you continue to give them your money and use their product.

It's understandable that they prefer customers who still fall for their words over customers who have seen through them

Thus one of two things can be divined from this... either you're an addict who just can't quit the game

To quote yourself from this very thread: "So basically... a WotC rep could come over to my house each and every month and doofsmack me in the back of the head and I'd STILL pay for DDI"

Free advice: save response time later by already preparing your defense for WotC for when the take Dragon and Dungeon Magazine and put them in some kind of online-based-viewer so that no one can download any issues anymore

 

[renau1g]

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Given the high likelihood that this is him asking what info said tool hooks into, whether it's xml etc. etc. then it's entirely understandable for him to be doing this.

Moreover, as I clearly said above, it was a request for people to contact him not a statement.

He hasn't said 'It will work with X'. He has made statements about the file format, what may or may not have changed for it. This is all stuff he's absolutely in a position to state.

Thanks.

 

[mudbunny]

Does anyone have a quote/link for this? Also, is Paolo in a position to make these statements? He's a developer right? Most of the time developers don't make this call.

Also, has this been vetted through Legal/corporate? The last time he made statements about supplemental tools, they were not, so I'd hate to see those misunderstandings happen again.

These last questions are likely best answered by [MENTION=56746]mudbunny[/MENTION] as he's the only one who may know more than the average user.

In this case, I am just as in the dark as everyone else. I suspect (and this is just based on my readings of things and conversations I have had with some people at WotC), that WotC had been trying to convince those that are in charge of deciding what gets said when to loosen the restrictions some and to allow more open communication and that what we are seeing from Paolo is a result of that being at least partially successful.

As for Paolo contacting 3PPs, (again, pure speculation) it is clear that there is a portion of the population that subscribes to DDI not for the tools, but for how the tool output can be used in other tools like iPlay4E and MasterPlan. One possibility is that Paolo is trying to find out about the output formats that are commonly used and what info is grabbed from those files. Another possibility involves NDAs and a look at the output from Essentials characters so that when .dnd4e exportability is implemented, those tools that rely on importing .dnd4e will be ready to go with the appropriate updates. (again, all of this is speculation.)

But, I would be very, very surprised if Paolo was doing this *without* permission from people higher up.

 

[renau1g]

Excellent. I just know there was miscommunications/misunderstandings last time and it appears Paolo is being beat-up pretty good over on the WotC boards for it. Hate seeing that happen to a guy who appears to be at least trying over there.

 

[DEFCON 1]

To quote yourself from this very thread: "So basically... a WotC rep could come over to my house each and every month and doofsmack me in the back of the head and I'd STILL pay for DDI"

Hey, I freely admit that I'm an addict when it comes to the Character Builder. Which is why I couldn't give a rat's ass whatever format it comes in. If all of a sudden they told me that it could only be used on Macs... I'd actually start to think long and hard about picking up an Ipad.

Free advice: save response time later by already preparing your defense for WotC for when the take Dragon and Dungeon Magazine and put them in some kind of online-based-viewer so that no one can download any issues anymore

I don't need time later. I'll tell you it now.

The number of people who are DDI subscribers because they want Dragon and Dungeon and don't care about the CB or Monster Tools I am willing to be it so infinitesimally small that it pretty much would not change subscriptions one way or another. In fact, next month WotC could announce that Dragon and Dungeon Magazine were being outright cancelled, but that an Encounter Builder was being added to the Adventure Tools, and I'd be willing to bed their subscription numbers would go up for that month.

That's how unimportant the two magazines are to DDI subscriptions in my opinion. Yeah, sure, we'd see a whole host of people still come here on ENWorld claiming "Now WotC's REALLY done it! Strawbrokecamelback etc. etc." but when it came time to put up or shut up... they'd still keep a subscription going, because the magazines are not the real reason people subscribe to DDI.

I said it before and I'll say it again... the Character Builder is just TOO GOOD to toss away because WotC's making this lateral move with it. And that half the people here saying they're cancelling because they're tired of being "SCREWED OVER BY WIZARDS OF THE COAST" aren't really going to do it.

Cause in the end... if it's that important to you... you'll pay for it. Hell, when the gas companies jacked the gas prices up to $4 a gallon last year, we heard all kinds of people shouting and decrying the move and that they were going to "stop driving" because of it. But I just went to the pumps and bought my gas as I always did, because I liked my car, I liked driving it, and it did what I needed it to do price be damned. And it's the same way with DDI.

 

[ghaladen]

My open letter to WotC I sent them

Dear Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford, and all that are concerned:

I am writing this letter in response to my recent cancellation of D&D Insider. First a little background on myself, I play several different version of D&D weekly. AD&D (2e), Pathfinder (never got into 3.5), and 4th edition. Unlike most players I don't stand on one side or the other, I enjoy 2nd edition because my DM in that game is a storyteller and light on mechanics, and I enjoy the narrative and the loose grip on the rules. I enjoy DM'ing 4th edition because the tactical combat is a blast. And I enjoy Pathfinder because in my opinion, and I mean no offense to the current party present, it is by far the best balance between old and new D&D so far. Once again this is my opinion only, and as I gave the disclaimer above, I enjoy all three versions regularly and play/purchase all three. But since this email is about 4th edition, Wizards of the Coast, and D&D Insider.

So, while I am a software developer by trade, I tend to run my games very "Luke's Diner" if you will, eschewing as much technology as possible (although I use Skype, HD webcams, and a condenser mic to have friends from far away jump in and play with my local groups via video chat. Yes I'm a bit insane, but that setup is a whole other email). However, I find beauty in the analog. I have tons of WotC miniatures, at least 25 4e books, battlemaps tiles, etc. I'm pretty sure Dwarven Forge will be next. So that being said, I was initially reluctant with the thought of using software to roll characters, but as more and more of my players sung the praises of it, I decided to give it a shot. Turns out I really enjoyed the Character Builder, and especially building monsters with the Adventure Tools. So I got a subscription, and have ad one since February.

Fast forward to yesterday, with the recent news of Character Builder going Web-based, and not just a standard HTML interface, Silverlight nonetheless. So I will outline the issues I have:

Silverlight: So, it is great to know that Mac is officially supported, but a simple search on the web tells that the internet has begun to eschew plug-in based technologies like Flash, Silverlight and Java in favor of AJAX powered sites requiring no plugins (see the Google line of apps like Gmail, Docs, and Maps for an example of AJAX apps). And, even better, many of the newer smaller devices like the iPad don't support Flash or Silverlight. So Wizards has basically cut out a portion of their consumer base by resorting to Silverlight. Also one could argue that Silverlight is similar technology to the platform that the desktop Character Builder was based on, making the transition easier. But say, Wizards down the line decides to make mobile versions of their software. That requires a port of the software to the iPhone, to the Blackberry, to Windows Mobile. All different platforms, all different programming skill sets. Versus simply doing a single port to a native web app would support all of the above.

Foul business practices to third party developers: So there is a lot of history involving WotC's stance on third party applications, but in context I'm referring to the constant cease and desists towards the Compendium Helper for iPhone, MasterPlan for Windows, and just about any other application which imports compendium data from DDI. Now, with lack of a download option for the dd4e files, the latest casualty seems to be iplay4e. While one could argue that yes, it is WotC's intellectual property, and yes these programs are using DDI content without the consent of WotC, this attitude towards developers that want to fulfill the needs of the 4e players that WotC can't (or won't) is downright shameful. Wizards should be heralding and supporting the ingenuity of these developers, especially since they required the user to have a DDI account, meaning WotC is profiting on these applications' mere existence!

Foul business practices to consumers: In my eyes, with the constant coveting of their rules/content/software, Wizards is basically telling their consumer base "We don't trust you, the people that buy our goods and services. There are a few among you that pirate our blessed software and content, so we will punish everyone for their misdeeds". Don't have an internet connection where you're at (or often in my case, trouble connecting the laptop to a hotspot)? Too damn bad!.Hope you either printed out your character. Economy has been hard on you and you can't afford your DDI sub this month? Too damn bad. Hope you have a damn good memory, because your character is ours. Have children in your gaming group who do not have financial payment methods? Too damn bad! Either buy multiple subs or they luck out, since sharing is now against the Terms of Use. This is an atrocity coming from the same company who did the most amazing thing and open sourced the d20 rules 10 years ago. Now WotC has pulled a complete 180 and turned into the Microsoft of roleplaying. Sad times.

Pulling PDF rulebooks: This was a great idea, and Wizards was one of the first to get into the PDF business, even offering a free PDF for every book purchased (which was an awesome idea). I was excited at this idea, especially because I have an iPad now and can carry all my Pathfinder books in PDF form to games instead of 20 pounds of books (and not worry about them getting worn). Not so with 4th edition, WotC pulled that plug early. Yes, I am aware that Dungeon and Dragon are in PDF form, but honestly I don't use either. The rulebooks are what I need in digital form. So by not offering digital version to those that need them, you give users no choice but to pirate them, exposing their machines to viruses and other malware, when most of them would happily part with cash for both digital and print versions. All in the name of stopping piracy. Once again, punishing all for the actions of a few.


So with the above being said, I have lost a tremendous amount of respect for Wizards of the Coast, and their almost mob-style tactics. I have a sneaking suspicion that these are the actions from the execs from either WotC, or possibly even Hasbro. That being said, I have nothing but respect for Mike Mearls, Chris Perkins, Jeremy Crawford, and rest of the designers/developers of D&D, both past and present. It's almost like I buy CD's to support the bands I love, but I hate the recording industry.
So in this case I will still by the books and physical products for as long as they are sold, in order to support the developers, but I cannot stand the actions of the company they are employed by. So with that, my subscription to D&D Insider is canceled, and I say good riddance. My group will continue to stick with the books and paper, and continue with 4th edition, but without the burden of DDI. This could all be my hare-brained imagination running wild, but I do feel that WotC deserves a reason why they will no longer see $120 from me per year, and this is it.

 

[renau1g]

Cause in the end... if it's that important to you... you'll pay for it. Hell, when the gas companies jacked the gas prices up to $4 a gallon last year, we heard all kinds of people shouting and decrying the move and that they were going to "stop driving" because of it. But I just went to the pumps and bought my gas as I always did, because I liked my car, I liked driving it, and it did what I needed it to do price be damned. And it's the same way with DDI.

Hehe... gas is far more important to me than a gaming tool. I have to get to work to make money to pay for my house so I need gas. Businesses need gas to deliver their widgets. Nobody needs the DDI or the CB. They are very useful, but this reckoning you would pay $40-50 a month for the CB?

 

[bargle0]

I think we are at an "impasse."

Yes, an impasse. Wizards has the means to go to a digital-only subscription-based distribution model. They have withdrawn access to material before, recently, with the removal of RPGA material from the Compendium. Wizards has already made radical changes to the way they present the game including the publishing of Essentials, dropping support for the existing CB tool, and other smaller measures. I believe that if they go to a digital-only subscription-based model, then we will be in a position where they will withdraw access and we will have no other means to get at the material. I gave no time frame for this possibility.

Yet you believe that the mere suggestion of this conditional is irrational. If I had suggested at the dawning of the 3.0 era that Wizards could end Dungeon and Dragon as physical magazines and turn them in to subscription-based digital content, would I be called irrational? Maybe. If I had suggested at the dawning of the 4.0 era that in little more than two years, Wizards might scrap the at-will/encounter/daily power structure for certain new classes? My contribution here is no different.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yes, an impasse. Wizards has the means to go to a digital-only subscription-based distribution model. They have withdrawn access to material before, recently, with the removal of RPGA material from the Compendium. Wizards has already made radical changes to the way they present the game including the publishing of Essentials, dropping support for the existing CB tool, and other smaller measures. I believe that if they go to a digital-only subscription-based model, then we will be in a position where they will withdraw access and we will have no other means to get at the material. I gave no time frame for this possibility.

Speculative reasoning is speculative. WotC may do a lot of things. For all we know, this could be the tip of the iceberg you so rightly suggest. Likewise, this may be the tip of a vast gold-mine for us that WotC has simply yet to develop.

We're living in a digital age, the idea that hardbacks and paper are the way of the future is a lie plain and simple.(I know you're not suggesting this). When Wizards published hard and paperbacks only, they were in a position of control. You got access to their info by paying for it. When they added digital versions of books and DDI, IMO, they lost a lot of that control due to pirating. With this move, Wizards in now in a position of control again, control of the things that make them money. The position every company wants to be in.

 

[Scribble]

Yes, an impasse.

Thank you for the Wikipedia link. (I'm not sure why you felt the need to put it there though.)

Wizards has the means to go to a digital-only subscription-based distribution model. They have withdrawn access to material before, recently, with the removal of RPGA material from the Compendium. Wizards has already made radical changes to the way they present the game including the publishing of Essentials, dropping support for the existing CB tool, and other smaller measures. I believe that if they go to a digital-only subscription-based model, then we will be in a position where they will withdraw access and we will have no other means to get at the material. I gave no time frame for this possibility.

That's fine- I'm not arguing against the idea that if they go all digital + subscription model and withdrawal access we wouldn't have any means to get it back.

I'm arguing that all signs point towards them NOT doing this, so there's no need to fear.

If those signs start showing up- then we can be fearful... But at the moment? Everything points towards them continuing to highlight phsyical product as being the core of the game.

Yet you believe that the mere suggestion of this conditional is irrational.

Nope- not the mere suggestion. The fear of this happening when all signs are pointing towards it not happening, and the shown business model points towards Wotc favoring physical products.

If I had suggested at the dawning of the 3.0 era that Wizards could end Dungeon and Dragon as physical magazines and turn them in to subscription-based digital content, would I be called irrational? Maybe.

For suggesting it as a possibility in the future? No- for saying it was something to be afraid of based on the current happenings at the time? Yes.

If I had suggested at the dawning of the 4.0 era that in little more than two years, Wizards might scrap the at-will/encounter/daily power structure for certain new classes? My contribution here is no different.

In this case there were signs that WoTC was opening up the way classes worked long before Essentials.



If you really want to tell them to continue supporting physical books? Buy physical books! They want to sell them to you!