November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[Flamestrike]

How is a battlemaster going to parry if he doesn't have a weapon in hand? Will the sword teleport into his hand just or does parry function exactly like deflect arrows.

However the ability works, I dont know. Its not relevant how it works, whats relelvant is the reaction it takes to do it.

People have been saying "the NPC hears or sees something that causes them to be suspicious and alert for trouble"

They spot the arrow in flight, get a bad feeling, notice something or whatever. Narrate it however you want.

How did you used to narrate Uncanny dodge in 3.P? Do that.

If you're now saying "well, the NPC only sees something if the assassin attacks" will you force the assassin to attack?

I'm not 'forcing' the assassin to attack anyone; the assassin has already declared his attack against the dude he's assasinating. He's the one that forced the combat to begin in the first place.

He declares a hostile action, and that starts combat. Whether he can get the hostile action off or not at a surprised foe; well thats what the Inititiave check models.

the assassin (who could be invisible and silenced) can just walk away,

No, he cant. He has already declared he is shooting at someone. Thats what started the combat. He has nocked his arrow and let it fly, triggering the combat (and its probably what the victim notices - a blur of an arrow flying towards him). Your assassin cant take that back now that he loses initiative and his enemy is just able to react in time to that arrow!

Remember; despite the cyclical stop/start nature of DnD combat rounds at the table, your character is not standing there like an idiot while everyone else moves around him etc. The actions taken in combat are happening largely at the same time.

Same deal if your wizard is standing 30' away from some orcs talking to them, and suddenlt declares he casts fireball (triggering combat). If the orcs roll a better initiative score, they get to charge him and cut him down before he finishes rilling his bat guano into a little ball and the arcane words are finished for the spell.

 

[JohnLynch]

How did you used to narrate Uncanny dodge in 3.P? Do that.

Uncanny Dodge was a...<double checks> an exceptional ability. In your narrative you have transformed it from an exceptional ability to a common day ability. I can buy uncanny dodge as something that requires a lot of training and something that makes you badass. Bob the baker down the street is not badass. He shouldn't have exceptional abilities like having double the chance of being able to spot an attack from an invisible and silenced assassin (whose killing you with an invisible and silenced dagger).

I'm not 'forcing' the assassin to attack anyone; the assassin has already declared his attack against the dude he's assasinating. He's the one that forced the combat o begin. His action.

He declares a hostile action, and that starts combat.....No he cant. He has already declared he is shooting at someone. Thats what started the combat. He has nocked his arrow and let fly, triggering the combat (and its probably what the victim notices - a blur of an arrow flyig towards him). Your assassin cant take that back now that he loses initiative and his enemy is just able to react in time to that arrow!

Here's how it works. When combat starts, everyone acts. Whoever has the higher initiative, that person's action is resolved first. If that person is surprised then the "action" they take is being surprised, which is resolved, i.e. ends, first, before the resolution of the attack that started combat. It's the initiation of the attack that begins combat, not it's resolution.

So you would make the assassin pre-declare their action before initiative is rolled? Do you do this with all rounds, just the first round or just with surprise rounds? What if the action the assassin had pre-declared was no longer suitable (e.g. someone else kills the target)? Would their turn be wasted or do they get to do something else (such as, flee the area while stealthing)? Do you do this to all PCs or just assassins? Do you do this with NPCs as well?

Remember; despite the cyclical stop/start nature of DnD combat rounds at the table, your character is not standing there like an idiot while everyone else moves around him etc. The actions taken in combat are happening largely at the same time.

This hasn't been true since 3rd edition did away with the "you must declare your action and then roll initiative" way of handling combat. You can still narrate it the old way if you want to, but this is fundamentally not how the game actually works anymore (unless your playing 2nd ed or earlier, playing an OSR clone or using optional rules/house rules).

 

[abirdcall]

Same deal if your wizard is standing 30' away from some orcs talking to them, and suddenlt declares he casts fireball (triggering combat). If the orcs roll a better initiative score, they get to charge him and cut him down before he finishes rilling his bat guano into a little ball and the arcane words are finished for the spell.

Yep.

I find often the easiest way to explain a rule is to flip it around.

If the party is staring down some orcs hoping to convince them to keep walking and then the DM starts rolling dice and announces that they have been hit by the orcs - because the DM made the decision to attack first - the players would likely call foul. Even if the DM says, well, the orcs waited until they had won the initiative before acting. It makes no sense.

Similarly for surprise it makes sense to be able to throw up a shield spell at the last second if your reflexes are fast enough. It is fun, engaging, and makes for a good story.

This is much better than the alternative of the DM announcing that the assassins have done a ton of damage, then having people roll initiative.

These are also the rules, and always have been in 5e. It is okay to not like them. You can change any rule you like. But these are the rules. They were even good enough to clarify them for everyone which is what this thread is about.

 

[Valador]

Assassin is hidden and beats the stealth check required, declares hes WANTS to attack, roll initiative.

You roll initiative before you fire that arrow...

Assassin wins initiative and the person is surprised. Commence attacks, Assassinate.
Assassin loses initiative and the person is surprised. Commence attacks but assassin cannot Assassinate.
If a party member beat the Assassins initiative and they attack before him, maybe he should have told them to wait...

Second scenario, you're sneaking and trying to hide.
Assassin fails stealth check vs target.
Target see's the Assassin. Both sides are like oh damn. Sides declare their intents. Roll initiative if intent is combat.

At least this is how I interpreted the rules to prevent abusing "I suddenly attack the dude without any notice and I don't want him to possibly react."

I would also implement surprise into non-stealth aspects of the game. Say your rogue is sweet talking someone and conning them and then bam, out of nowhere decides to sucker punch them without any real sign of intent. I would have them roll Rogue Deception vs. Target Insight to see if the target notices the Rogues body language shift to hostile, etc.. If the rogue wins the check he surprises the guy and the guy loses his first turn in init order. If the rogue fails there's no surprise and combat goes in init order as normal.

 

[Flamestrike]

So you would make the assassin pre-declare their action before initiative is rolled?

Im not MAKING him do anything!

He is hidden from an orc walking down the corridoor, and he decides to attack the Orc with his bow and declares he is attacking, triggering combat and inititive.

He isnt 'pre-declaring' anything. He tells me he shoots the Orc. Its his agency. That starts combat.

There is a chance that the Orc might be able to react fast enough to that attack to not be surprised.

What if the action the assassin had pre-declared was no longer suitable (e.g. someone else kills the target)?

Then you say: 'just before your arrow is loosed, you notice your target has already been felled; what do you do'?

Do you do this to all PCs or just assassins? Do you do this with NPCs as well?

Literally with everyone for every combat.

Like if your Wizard was chatting with some NPC's armed with crossbows, and they suddenly take aim and fire them at him, they dont get a free round of combat on the hapless PC. Initiative is rolled.

If the PC Wizard goes first, he gets a chance to act before they get those bolts off. He sees them take aim at him or catches the glint of evil in their eyes and manages to get a spell off before they pull the trigger.

Same deal if the Wizard decides to fireball them (triggering combat). The NPC's get a chance (assuming they rolled well enough on the Dex check) to shoot him before he finishes casting the spell and frying them.

This hasn't been true since 3rd edition did away with the "you must declare your action and then roll initiative" way of handling combat. You can still narrate it the old way if you want to, but this is fundamentally not how the game actually works anymore (unless your playing 2nd ed or earlier, playing an OSR clone or using optional rules/house rules).

The ONLY way combat can be initiatied is when someone declares a hostile action. Its not a case of asking everyone to pre-declare actions at the start of the round. There was no round until the action was declared which started the cyclical turn based combat resolution sequence there. Its the very declaration of a hostile action that switches the game from narrative time to the combat round sequence. So he doesnt pre declare his first combat action (he doesnt have a combat action yet); his declaration simply initiates the start of combat.

You're running a game where the first guy to scream I ATTACK!!!! gets a free round of combat, or an infinite initiative score. I dont see that rule in the combat section anywhere. All declaring an attack does is end narrative time and begin the combat sequence as described in the PHB. Initiative is rolled and anyone that scores higher than the dude that started the ball rolling, gets an opportunity to act or react before that guy.

Unless they're surprised of course, in which case they dont get to act on the first round.]

Narrate it accordingly. Those are the rules.

 

[Flamestrike]

Assassin is hidden and beats the stealth check required, declares hes WANTS to attack, roll initiative.

Declaring you 'want' to attack doesnt start combat. Thinking violent thoughts does not start the combat sequence.

He declares he is attacking. Combat sequence begins, and Initiative is rolled. All hell breaks loose.

The initiative mechanic is just the system that is used to determine the order of actions in that chaos, with most of the actions happening largely at the same time. Narrate it accordingly.

 

[JohnLynch]

Got the whole "What if the shoe was on the other foot" scenario, how many monster manual creatures require 2 ability score checks plus an attack roll to use any of their standard abilities?

How many classes have to succeed in 2 opposed ability score checks plus an attack roll or saving throw? I can't think of any off the top of my head. It just seems to be assassins who are getting shafted like this? If assassinate and death Attack are such overpowered abilities, shouldn't WotC have just given them a different class feature rather than lock it behind 3 rolls (1 passive or opposed, DM choice, 1 opposed and then 1 roll against a set DC).

As for "this has always been the rule" I just reread the assassin subclass and the surprised rules in the combat chapter. It is not glaringly obvious that two of the assassin's class features are gatekept behind 3 separate rolls because there is no text that says when surprise ends. I'd expect a casual player to read the assassin, maybe read up on surprise and then decide if they want that class. If they choose that clad I'd expect itMs because those abilities sound cool. Those abilities sound significantly less cool when you get told there's 3 separate Checks the character must succeed on to use that ability (no matter what Magic items they have) and that everyone has the exceptional ability to negate the assassin's class features, that these people get two chances at negating it and they only have to succeed on one of those checks (whereas the assassin must succeed on all 3). I'd expect the player to say "that sucks, I'll play something else" and likely then ask if their next character will have certain class features that require 3 separate (but successful) rolls that are opposed by 2 separate rolls (onl 1 must succeed). Once the group realises only assassins have such an ability I expect it will become player banned at my table.

 

[Valador]

He declares he is attacking. Combat sequence begins, and Initiative is rolled. All hell breaks loose.

Basically you're saying initiative is rolled AFTER the attack that starts the combat? So basically you're handing out free attacks to the Assassin outside of combat? So hypothetically speaking he could attack, roll initiative and beat everyone and attack again before the target can do anything. That's abusive and I don't think that's the intent of the rules.

 

[abirdcall]

It just seems to be assassins who are getting shafted like this?

It's a feature, not a bug. Even though you didn't play it like this, the assassins really were designed this way.

It is not the subclass you think it is.

I actually think it only works well in specialized games. I can see why it was included though, and in those games it is a fine choice.

Luckily the Swashbuckler was made for those who want a combat subclass for the rogue.

Also, redesigning the combat round to cater to assassins is backwards. If your issue is the assassin, I would suggest houseruling it rather than houseruling the combat round. It will be much simpler and have less unforeseen consequences.

None of this is new to me though, this is how I have always played it.

*edit* Trope/Flavourwise I also don't think it is a failure of the system where the assassin ends up being the least popular rogue subtype. It was well done. It is flavourful, has useful abilities, but is also quite niche which is exactly what an assassin should be imo.

 

[Valador]

Declaring you 'want' to attack doesnt start combat. Thinking violent thoughts does not start the combat sequence.

He declares he is attacking. Combat sequence begins, and Initiative is rolled. All hell breaks loose.

The initiative mechanic is just the system that is used to determine the order of actions in that chaos, with most of the actions happening largely at the same time. Narrate it accordingly.

Reading your post before this one, it seems we're actually on the same page. When you said he IS attacking you made it sound like he's doing it on the spot without rolling any initiative first, therefore outside combat. But you declared the attack, then rolled init, and then acted according to the init. The way I normally interpret it is that when I say I WANT/INTEND to attack something that I'm making my intent known to the DM that its combat time and time to roll init. Pretty much what you said. It just seemed odd to me to state an action before it was technically your turn in combat, because the situation could have changed before your round. It just made more sense to ME to state an intent rather than an action.

please tell me we're on the same page because that just confused me lol