November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[JohnLynch]

Im not MAKING him do anything!

You seem to be taking this as an attack. I'm not intending it as such. Here's what I meant to say: In your enforcement of the rules of D&D 5th edition as supported by the text in the PHB and the Sage Advice document, do you require the assassin to pre-declare their action before initiative is rolled. I'm sorry my comment sounded like I was attacking you (If my interpretation of your post is wrong then disregard this point).

He is hidden from an orc walking down the corridoor, and he decides to attack the Orc with his bow and declares he is attacking, triggering combat and inititive.

He isnt 'pre-declaring' anything.

He is though. In your application of the rules the assassin says "on my turn I will do X. It is not my turn now but I have told you this is what I'm doing unless you give me leave to do something else at your discretion. I rolled a 10 for initiative."

He tells me he shoots the Orc. Its his agency. That starts combat.

Presumably once combat starts the players roll initiative. Do you go round the table and ask each player "What are you doing on your turn" and then roll initiative (ala 2nd ed)? Or does only the person who initiates combat declare their action before initiative is rolled?

Then you say: 'just before your arrow is loosed, you notice your target has already been felled; what do you do'?

Ok so if the action becomes impossible their combat initiating declaration gets waived. If the assassin sees the person is more alert (i.e. That they can take reactions) can he also change his combat initiating action? What if he's the second person to have their turn (with the first being the NPC who took no actions due to being surprised)?

Literally with everyone for every combat.

Every round or just the first round?

Like if your Wizard was chatting with some NPC's armed with crossbows, and they suddenly take aim and fire them at him, they dont get a free round of combat on the hapless PC. Initiative is rolled.

No. Because the wizard isn't surprised. If the wizard was surprised then they will.

If the PC Wizard goes first, he gets a chance to act before they get those bolts off. He sees them take aim at him or catches the glint of evil in their eyes and manages to get a spell off before they pull the trigger.

Only if said Wizard had a shield prepared or isn't surprised.

Same deal if the Wizard decides to fireball them (triggering combat). The NPC's get a chance (assuming they rolled well enough on the Dex check) to shoot him before he finishes casting the spell and frying them.

Only if the NPCs aren't surprised or are spellcasters.

The ONLY way combat can be initiatied is when someone declares a hostile action.

Honest question here: Where in the PHB does it say this? I'm not being a smart-aleck here. I can see that initiative is rolled at the start of combat. That combat is a clash between two sides. That surprise is determined by the DM. That characters get actions on their turn (unless surprised) and that movement can be taken before and/or after an action. That there are a number of actions characters can take. Nowhere do I see it say "The ONLY way combat can be initiatied is when someone declares a hostile action."

Can you give me a page number and/of heading where it says how combat starts or what step in "Order of Combat" initiates combat. It's such a simple thing you think it would be obvious. But I can't see it.

You're running a game where the first guy to scream I ATTACK!!!! gets a free round of combat, or an infinite initiative score.

I dont see that rule in the combat section anywhere.

Ha! That does sound snarky

Narrate it accordingly. Those are the rules.

Well this Sage Advice's "clarification" (smells like a stealth errata to me) changes those rules significantly. I think there's value in discussing the rules even if I do intend to change them (or decide not to apply the stealth errata as the case might be). I was originally not going to weigh in because I read it and went "silly rule" and moved on. But the more I thought about it the more I realized this ability requires 3 rolls (1 opposed, 2 set against DCs) to work. I can't think of anything else that requires this many checks to "be balanced" so I thought I might have something of value to contribute.

 

[Flamestrike]

It just seems to be assassins who are getting shafted like this?

Oh yeah, because no-one read the Assasin ability and wasnt all like... WOW! Auto crits FTW, with threads popping up everywhere with Half Orc Paladin/ Fighters featuring 3 levels of assasin and spamming 1000+ DPR be leaping out of the darkness and axe murdering things.

If assassinate and death Attack are such overpowered abilities, shouldn't WotC have just given them a different class feature rather than lock it behind 3 rolls (1 passive or opposed, DM choice, 1 opposed and then 1 roll against a set DC).

There powerful abilities because they're locked behind those rolls.

I suppose Wizards could have redesigned the whole combat system for this class feature, but they instead (wisely) chose to link the power of the ability to the difficulty of pulling it off.

As for "this has always been the rule" I just reread the assassin subclass and the surprised rules in the combat chapter. It is not glaringly obvious that two of the assassin's class features are gatekept behind 3 separate rolls because there is no text that says when surprise ends.

Agreed. They could have stated that you are no longer surprised after your first turn (of inactivity) ends.

Once the group realises only assassins have such an ability I expect it will become player banned at my table.

Becuase auto advantage againt any foe that hasnt yet had a turn on round 1, and auto crits on any foe you surprise and hasnt yet had its turn is 'weak' when compared to fast hands (Thief), sneak attack when youre soloing (via swashbuckler) or a few spells per day (via arcane trickster)?

Max Dex. Take the Alert feat. Move on.

Basically you're saying initiative is rolled AFTER the attack that starts the combat?

No after the attack is declared, but before it is resolved. The declaration of the attack is a declaration by the payer that [its time to commence the combat round sequence].

Same deal when the DM states "You see an Ogre burst out of the bushes 10' away. It charges you bellowing loudly and swinging its club. Roll initiative'.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You seem to be taking this as an attack.

But is it before or after initiative's been rolled?

 

[JohnLynch]

It's a feature, not a bug. Even though you didn't play it like this, the assassins really were designed this way.

Has anyone Mathed it out and posted the results?

IIt is not the subclass you think it is.

I was expecting a class that could stealth around, scout ahead, and when it's flavourful, get off a really decent sneak attack (likely against a lone enemy to try to help the assassin not raise an alarm). It looks like that's what you get when you read the class and then read how surprise works.

ILuckily the Swashbuckler was made for those who want a combat subclass for the rogue.

That's great and all. But that's not what I thought we were getting with the assassin.

IAlso, redesigning the combat round to cater to assassins is backwards. If your issue is the assassin, I would suggest houseruling it rather than houseruling the combat round. It will be much simpler and have less unforeseen consequences.

Well applying the rules as dictated in the PHB isn't really redesigning the combat round around the assassin. Everyone is actually affected by this implementation of surprise. It's just the assassin who dedicates two entire class features around the surprise rules.

Trope/Flavourwise I also don't think it is a failure of the system where the assassin ends up being the least popular rogue subtype. It was well done. It is flavourful, has useful abilities, but is also quite niche which is exactly what an assassin should be imo.

There's nothing flavourful about making a class so undesirable that people who want to play assassins instead decide to play any class except the one that has a subclass dedicated to the trope.

Oh yeah, because no-one read the Assasin ability and wasnt all like... WOW! Auto crits FTW, with threads popping up everywhere with Half Orc Paladin/ Fighters featuring 3 levels of assasin and spamming 1000+ DPR be leaping out of the darkness and axe murdering things.

No-one in my 5th edition group goes online either before or after making their character to see if their build is "teh win!!!"

There powerful abilities because they're locked behind those rolls.

No, they'd be powerful abilities even if they weren't locked behind 3 separate rolls (1 opposed, 2 against a DC). In fact, they'd be more powerful. But I'm a assuming you meant they're allowed to be so powerful because they're locked behind 3 rolls. And sure, I get that. But wouldn't it have been better design to not lock them behind 3 rolls but instead make them less powerful? "Your crit range becomes X in the first round of combat" would have captured the same flavour without requiring an unprecedented 3 rolls just to use.

Did WotC decide to lock away another class feature (or feat or spell) behind 3 rolls to take effect?

Becuase auto advantage againt any foe that hasnt yet had a turn on round 1, and auto crits on any foe you surprise and hasnt yet had its turn is 'weak' when compared to fast hands (Thief), sneak attack when youre soloing (via swashbuckler) or a few spells per day (via arcane trickster)?

They small chance of using those abilities successfully might "balance" them out, but that doesn't make them fun.

Max Dex. Take the Alert feat. Move on.

Great! So now to use my two class features slightly more reliably I have to sink 3 feats into this. Man, the math behind this better show this ability is friggen awesome.

No after the attack is declared, but before it is resolved. The declaration of the attack is a declaration by the payer that [its time to commence the combat round sequence].

Same deal when the DM states "You see an Ogre burst out of the bushes 10' away. It charges you bellowing loudly and swinging its club. Roll initiative'.

Your ogres all have the charge feat? What CR are they?

But is it before or after initiative's been rolled?

HA!

 

[Flamestrike]

In your enforcement of the rules of D&D 5th edition as supported by the text in the PHB and the Sage Advice document, do you require the assassin to pre-declare their action before initiative is rolled.

Initiative isnt rolled unless someone declares a hostile act. Hostile acts are the domain of the combat sequence, are performed on your turn and in initiative order.

Seeing as the Assasin in this example is hiding in a bush, and the Orc is standing 30' away twiddling his thumbs and unaware of the Assassin, its doubtful that the Orc is going to be the one to get hostilities under way.

It goes:

Bob: OK, so this is the place my target is supposed to be, I peer in the warehouse doorway. What do I see?
DM: Yeah see a the warehouse is full of boxes and crates scattered about ad-hoc. Really cluttered. The roof is about 20' above you. Its quite dark in here.
Bob: It's OK, im a half orc and have darkvision. Can I hear anything? I'll stand quietly outside the doorway for a minute listening for any noise.
DM: Roll perception.
Bob: 13. Anything?
DM: Yes. You can just make out a muffled cough. It seems to be coming from the middle of the warehouse.
Bob. Ill silently enter the warehouse, moving behind crates as I do towards the centre of the room.
DM: Roll stealth.
Bob: I got a 16.
DM: (Compares steath check with guards passive perception. Notes Bob succeeded). OK Bob, your assasin sneaks to the middle of the warehouse. Peering over a crate, you notice a lone human. He wears chainmail and has his shield slung on his back. He's currently having a smoke and looks more intersted in the porn magazine he reads than his job. In front of him you see a trapdoor. Its currently open.
Bob: Is this my target?
DM: No. This looks like some kind of hireling.
BOB: Can I sneak past him and down the trapdoor?
DM: He's right in front of it at the moment, but distracted with his magazine, so you can with disdvantage on your stealth check.
Bob: Hmmmm.... damn. Screw that - OK, I'll draw my handcrossbow and shoot him.
[AT THIS STAGE THE GAME SWITCHES FROM NARRATIVE MODE TO COMBAT MODE]
DM Roll initiative. He's surprised.
Bob: Damn... a 9.
DM: 10! He wins! Your crossbow makes a distinctive creak as you crank it back and his head snaps up from his magazine; the cigarette falling from his mouth. He quickly fumbles for his sword with no idea where the sound was coming from. It's now your turn Bob, resolve your attack. You have advantage as you are attacking from hiding.
Bob: Rolls a 7 and a 21. [The 21 hits, deals hand crossbow damage, sneak attack and Dex]. Is he still up?
DM: Yes, but your bolt is solidly embedded in his shoulder [unbeknown to the player, the guard is on 1 HP]
Bob: Damn! Is he looking at me?
DM: No, he was distracted by his porn magazine. Now he's staring in shock at the crossbow bolt in his shoulder with a fair amount of blood running down his chest already.
Bob: Ok, I' ll move to behind another crate and use cunning action to hide as a bonus action.
DM: OK, roll stealth..

etc

Honest question here: Where in the PHB does it say this? I'm not being a smart-aleck here. I can see that initiative is rolled at the start of combat. That combat is a clash between two sides. That surprise is determined by the DM. That characters get actions on their turn (unless surprised) and that movement can be taken before and/or after an action. That there are a number of actions characters can take. Nowhere do I see it say "The ONLY way combat can be initiatied is when someone declares a hostile action."

And underneath those rules you can see the rules for surprise. They are lacking in 'when surprise ends' granted.

Combat rounds and the attack action doesnt start after an attack, as an attack can only happen during combat. It starts when hostilities are declared (by either the player or the DM). Then all hell breaks loose.

Well this Sage Advice's "clarification" (smells like a stealth errata to me) changes those rules significantly.

No, it doesnt. This is how combat in DnD has been since. well.. ever. Declaring a hostile act only commences the combat sequence. It doesnt grant you a free round of combat.

Otherwise players are just gonna be interrupting you halfway though your monster descriptions with:

DM: OK Bob, in front of you is a 30 x 30 room with an exit on the east wall. In front of you, you see an Hobgoli..
BOB: I ATTACK!
DM: Roll to hit. (should be roll initiative)

Or:

DM: The Lizard folk shaman thanks you for your assistance and asks you if you kept your promise not to loot the kings body.
Bob: I ATTACK!
DM: Roll to hit. (should be roll initiative)

Or:

DM: The cute little puppi...
Bob: I ATTACK!
DM: Roll to hit.

Etc.

 

[Arial Black]

DM Roll initiative. He's surprised.
Bob: Damn... a 9.
DM: 10! He wins! Your crossbow makes a distinctive creak as you crank it back and his head snaps up from his magazine; the cigarette falling from his mouth. He quickly fumbles for his sword with no idea where the sound was coming from. It's now your turn Bob, resolve your attack. You have advantage as you are attacking from hiding.

This is the logical disconnect.

The assassin has already beaten the guard Stealth/Perception-wise. The guard doesn't know the assassin is there.

How can a Dexterity check let you hear something that your Wisdom(perception) check didn't?

 

[JohnLynch]

[Really good point that demonstrates why players would have fun with Flamestrike adjudicating the situation in this way]

Seriously. It's a good example. But how would you adjudicate this scenario:

Bob: I swoop in. I've got my ring of invisibility on and my ring of silence.
DM: Alright. The guard doesn't see you. He goes back to reading his magazine.
Bob: I watch him for an hour
DM: He just sits around. He dozes for a bit. Reads his magazine some more.
Bob: So there's no indication he knows I'm here.
DM: No. Your stealth check passed his Passive Perception.
Bob: Great. What's he doing now?
DM: He's gone back to reading his magazine.
Bob: Excellent. I want to throw my invisible and silenced dagger at him.

[AT THIS STAGE THE GAME SWITCHES FROM NARRATIVE MODE TO COMBAT MODE]
DM Roll initiative. He's surprised.
Bob: Damn... a 9.
DM: 10! He wins!

What happens next? The act of throwing this dagger will not cause it to become visible or audible.

And underneath those rules you can see the rules for surprise. They are lacking in 'when surprise ends' granted.

That's peachy and all. But those aren't the rules I asked for. I saw those rules (I even mentioned them in the paragraph you quoted). Can you please direct me to where the rules in the PHB say "The ONLY way combat can be initiatied is when someone declares a hostile action". As I mentioned I can't find them.

Combat rounds and the attack action doesnt start after an attack, as an attack can only happen during combat. It starts when hostilities are declared (by either the player or the DM). Then all hell breaks loose.

Bob says "I want to shoot my bow" at the NPC. Bob then wins initiative, does he get to change his mind and decide not to shoot the bow? Bob says "I want to shoot my bow" at the NPC. Bob then loses initiative and acts dead last. Does Bob get to change his mind and decide not to shoot the bow?

No, it doesnt. This is how combat in DnD has been since. well.. ever.

Let's stick with 5th edition rather than earlier editions. If earlier editions did say this (I honestly can't be bothered looking through my 4th ed book, nor do I want to go looking through my Pathfinder Core Rulebook which may, or may not, be different to the 3.5e PHB text) that would explain why you're assuming 5th edition also says it. But it's completely immaterial to the discussion at hand as we're discussing 5th edition and not earlier editions.

It doesnt grant you a free round of combat.

No-one is saying it is. You've said this a couple of times now and I've tried to correct you on this point.

Otherwise players are just gonna be interrupting you halfway though your monster descriptions with

As I've said to you in an earlier post, this is not how my game operates. You can ask me how my game operates if you want to, but I'd appreciate it if you stop telling me how my games operate given you've never been at my table.

 

[abirdcall]

This is the logical disconnect.

The assassin has already beaten the guard Stealth/Perception-wise. The guard doesn't know the assassin is there.

How can a Dexterity check let you hear something that your Wisdom(perception) check didn't?

Yeah, I wouldn't narrate it this way. I would resolve Bob's attack and then note whether or not the creature takes a reaction to that attack, after the attack has happened.

That is what is actually happening in the game. Surprise still means that no actions are taken, just that there are possible reactions.

For those saying that this is stealth errata and completely changing the game, or what have you, how were you playing before?

This is hard for me to understand because I have played 5e like this from the very start.

Please tell me what happens both during surprise and when 2 groups are say, talking to each other and 1 character decides to be violent.

The main thing here is that transitioning between scales of time is a storytelling challenge that is actually one of the DM's main jobs. It happens with overland travel too. Making it seamless can be difficult. I think the 5e rules help a lot in that regard but some people seem to think they are very bad for it which is curious to me as well.

 

[JohnLynch]

For those saying that this is stealth errata and completely changing the game, or what have you, how were you playing before?

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one, so here's how I've been handling it.

One group is trying to stealth and the other group is unaware of them (from memory it was the NPCs who succeeded). The players were going up to an obvious ambush spot so the players actively rolled. The NPCs succeeded on their stealth rolls against all but 1 PC.

Everyone rolled initiative. Those who were surprised did not get to act in the first round (no-one had reactions so the question of reactions didn't come up), everyone was surprised until the end of the first round.

This is supported by the rules.

Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn o f the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

None of this says when surprise ends. You can assume that it ends on a character's turn. However you can also assume it ends after the first round of combat.

Please tell me what happens both during surprise and when 2 groups are say, talking to each other and 1 character decides to be violent.

As per the rules

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.

As the DM I determine who is surprised. For example if this were at a dinner table among people who are believed to be unarmed and on friendly terms, I would certainly rule that yes, surprise is possible in this scenario. If the player tried to draw a sheathed dagger without being seen I might use a Dexterity (Stealth) roll (as the PHB says to) but to be honest I would probably go for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand). Alternatively if there is no reason for anyone to suspect that the PC is going to be violent then I might require a Charisma (Deception) vs Wisdom (Insight) check and give the PC advantage. A single PC can also surprise their own party and I would require them to make Wisdom (Insight) checks assuming the PC is not trying to signal his fellow players first (that would be a stealth check opposed by Wisdom (Perception) checks). Whether or not the other players had advantage to determine their fellow PC is suddenly about to do violence would depend on whether that PC had a history of randomly attacking people.

Technically the rules on surprise don't support this but I feel it falls under "The DM determines who might be surprised." Now if a group of armed strangers happen to meet in the middle of the wilderness then there's going to need to be significant work done to put the NPCs at ease so that the PC has the ability to declare a surprise attack. Simply talking for a couple of minutes and then yelling "Fireball" isn't going to cut it. Again this is supported by the rules which say

If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.

 

[Ristamar]

If the circumstances have already established that the victim is completely unaware of the assassin as he's about to attack, a generous (sensible?) DM can rule that the assailant auto-wins initiative or at least let him "Take 20" on his initiative roll.