November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[JohnLynch]

That is a fundamental error in thinking.

4th edition: When you surprise an enemy you gain a full round where you get to act and the enemy does not.
Pathfinder: You get a standard action that you can use and the enemy cannot use any action.
5th edition: You don't get the full benefits of surprise unless you ALSO beat them on initiative.

As we've acknowledged, surprise is hard. Most groups don't bother even trying to get it most of the time. I personally think this disincentivises people in attempting to gain surprise because it's effectively a two-check process to get the full benefit. I expect most people just won't bother investing the amount of time and resources surprise requires for such a small chance of getting a return.

The assassin's ability is also not minor.

I don't think there is anything more for us to say on this point. You think it's acceptable to give a player of a specific subclass an ability that requires 3 separate rolls to use. I do not and this is the only ability I can think of that requires such a turn of events. Unless you've got something different to add to this exchange I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[abirdcall]

'Combat' takes place in 'combat rounds', in initiative order. The rules don't allow you to attack an enemy with a weapon outside of initiative.

In combat, all the participants are aware that they are in danger, and act/react in combat according to the rules. If you know you are in combat with anyone, then you cannot be 'surprised' in game terms because you are already bobbing and weaving and on the lookout.

'Surprise' represents the disadvantages you have by not realising you are in combat. You are not bobbing or weaving, ready for a sword swinging at your head. That's why you are vulnerable to assassins, who train to take advantage of this.

The DM determines surprise. He can just say that a creature is or is not surprised by fiat, but where there is doubt then he is expected to call for opposed ability checks, most commonly Stealth/Perception.

The Initiative roll at the start of combat represents how quickly you react. However, initiative (a Dex check, measuring reaction speed) does not make you aware of danger in the first place, only to react quickly when you do actually perceive danger, and that is not represented by a Dex check but by opposed Stealth/Perception checks.

If you have no idea that there is any danger (because the assassin's Stealth beat your Perception), then having a good reaction speed doesn't help you notice the attack, just to be able to react quickly once you do notice.

If you roll a higher initiative than the undetected assassin, this won't make you a harder target because you are still not aware of any danger. When your initiative comes up, nothing has happened; there is nothing to react to! It shouldn't make you suddenly impossible to auto-crit because you still haven't detected danger.

So in your game if you are surprised you are paralyzed? You can't flinch? If I have surprised you I can walk straight up to you and stick a dagger in your heart and no amount of fast reflexes can stop it.

You are right about the first bit. You can't defend against it through normal means. The assassin still gets advantage for being an unseen attacker, they just don't get an auto crit. This is well represented in movies and tv shows.

Why is this hard to visualize? Or even understand that these are the rules? The rules should at least be as clear as day, especially now with the sage advice clarifying them.

When your initiative comes up you are right that you have nothing to react to. That is why reactions happen in reaction to things. You don't cast shield on your turn, you cast it when you are hit in an attempt to not be hit.

An incapacitated creature gets auto-critted by melee attacks. You don't have to do anything on your turn to defend against that. When it is another creatures turn they are assumed to be moving.

Have you banned the shield spell in your games?

I just don't get this thinking.

 

[abirdcall]

4th edition: When you surprise an enemy you gain a full round where you get to act and the enemy does not.
Pathfinder: You get a standard action that you can use and the enemy cannot use any action.
5th edition: You don't get the full benefits of surprise unless you ALSO beat them on initiative.

Is this the hang up?

This is a different game.

Don't view it through the lens of the other games.

There are no surprise rounds in 5e. It is structured differently.

If you want those other games. Play the other games.

And yes, you are still misunderstanding surprise. You still get the benefits of surprise even if you don't beat them on initiative because if you hadn't surprised them they would get a turn before you do.

I am not agreeing to disagree because you are fundamentally wrong on this point.

It's not uncommon though, this is why poker is so profitable. People think it is a mistake to play better hands when they lose because they don't recognize the benefits. They say, well I will either win or lose so it doesn't matter what I do.

Probabilities are hard to wrap your head around. It can feel like things don't matter because it is hard to see the big picture. We are pattern seeking animals.

The math doesn't lie though.

Surprise is always better than not surprise.

Surprise in 5e is different than it is in other games though because 5e is a different game.

Thieves Cant is also an okay ability to give a class even though it rarely comes up and is still of little use even when it does. Rogues having Thieves Cant doesn't make them a bad class.

Just as Assassins having a power that rarely comes up but is awesome when it does doesn't make them worse for having it.

 

[Coredump]

One option, that people tend to overlook, is giving advantage and/or disadvantage on the Dexterity(initiative) checks.... if you really think that assassin did a great job getting the drop on the target...give him advantage. If you think the target is distracted, or whatever, give him disadvantage.

Maybe even do both.

 

[abirdcall]

One option, that people tend to overlook, is giving advantage and/or disadvantage on the Dexterity(initiative) checks.... if you really think that assassin did a great job getting the drop on the target...give him advantage. If you think the target is distracted, or whatever, give him disadvantage.

Maybe even do both.

Sure, just don't do it just because the character has the assassin subclass.

If a character is a ranger or whatever and achieves the same thing, they should also get advantage in that situation.

 

[Li Shenron]

The level of annoyance for 5E grows each time I read one of these articles.

It's very understandable. A portion of the gamers base want more and more instructions, because they like a strongly regulated game that makes all rules decisions for them, but more instructions get in the way of another portion of the gamers base who feel more comfortable with less instructions and more freedom.

Just feel free to ignore the articles... I'm in the same league as you, and I feel we're already very lucky that this edition's staring point is a lot more free than the previous two.

 

[JohnLynch]

Is this the hang up?

This is a different game.

The rules in the PHB are silent on when surprise ends. My interpretation is not unreasonable.

You still get the benefits of surprise even if you don't beat them on initiative because if you hadn't surprised them they would get a turn before you do.

You don't get the full benefit.

I am not agreeing to disagree because you are fundamentally wrong on this point.

Well I am. I could sit here and endlessly repeat the same points. I understand what you are saying, you understand what I am saying. I do not see further discussion providing any new ground.

 

[Miladoon]

It's very understandable. A portion of the gamers base want more and more instructions, because they like a strongly regulated game that makes all rules decisions for them, but more instructions get in the way of another portion of the gamers base who feel more comfortable with less instructions and more freedom.

Just feel free to ignore the articles... I'm in the same league as you, and I feel we're already very lucky that this edition's staring point is a lot more free than the previous two.

I read them as a preemptive measure to ward off rules-lawyers and those that feel the need to quote Jeremy at my table. But alas, I mayhaps have overstepped my bounds and I concede. Read on, fans.

 

[Celtavian]

4th edition: When you surprise an enemy you gain a full round where you get to act and the enemy does not.
Pathfinder: You get a standard action that you can use and the enemy cannot use any action.
5th edition: You don't get the full benefits of surprise unless you ALSO beat them on initiative.

As we've acknowledged, surprise is hard. Most groups don't bother even trying to get it most of the time. I personally think this disincentivises people in attempting to gain surprise because it's effectively a two-check process to get the full benefit. I expect most people just won't bother investing the amount of time and resources surprise requires for such a small chance of getting a return.

Surprise is fine for everyone but the assassin. Most creatures don't have a particularly useful reaction ability. Gaining a round of actions on a target without them getting to act is a powerful advantage.

The class it hurts is the Assassin because the way surprise works disallows them from using their class defining ability if the lose initiative. It disincentivises people from choosing the assassin class. It ruins verisimilitude when making ranged attacks from an unseen position where the person being attacked couldn't possibly know they were being attacked if they miss their perception.

 

[Arial Black]

So in your game if you are surprised you are paralyzed? You can't flinch? If I have surprised you I can walk straight up to you and stick a dagger in your heart and no amount of fast reflexes can stop it.

If you walk up to him, moving out of hiding, then your target can see you and react if he has the higher initiative. This is the flinch. If you shoot an arrow, miss, and it clatters against the rock, the target has evidence that he is in combat and can react to anything he can perceive. If the arrow hits, the guy knows he's in combat.

But if the arrow is invisible and silenced, and misses, and you remain hidden, there is no way for the target to know he's in danger. He must be just as vulnerable now as he was a moment ago.

You are right about the first bit. You can't defend against it through normal means. The assassin still gets advantage for being an unseen attacker, they just don't get an auto crit. This is well represented in movies and tv shows.

Why is this hard to visualize? Or even understand that these are the rules? The rules should at least be as clear as day, especially now with the sage advice clarifying them.

It's hard to visualise that a totally unaware person can be made aware, not through what he perceives but by a Dex check! Why is that so hard to grasp?

When your initiative comes up you are right that you have nothing to react to. That is why reactions happen in reaction to things. You don't cast shield on your turn, you cast it when you are hit in an attempt to not be hit.

Have you banned the shield spell in your games?

Shield, in terms of the action economy, is a reaction which can only be taken if you are hit by an attack or targeted by magic missile. When cast, you can change a hit into a miss, meaning that even though the trigger was 'you get hit', the spell results in you never getting hit in the first place!

The spell does not represent the 1st level wizard getting a javelin through his head, killing him by massive damage, then casting the spell(!) and having the javelin slide out of his skull and the wizard being resurrected and standing up from prone!

The spell represents putting a mystical shield between you and an attack, in response to an attack which would hit you if you didn't cast shield.

It also means that you must be aware of the attack before it hits, in order to actually use it. You can't cast it after it actually hits and damages you in the game world, only if it would have hit if you didn't get the shield up in time, represented in pure game mechanics as a successful attack roll.

If you don't know that the arrow is coming toward your head, then you cannot use shield to react to it. If the assassin charges out of the bushes into plain sight, shield away!