November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[JohnLynch]

There is a two part component here. The mechanical adjudications of actions (where rules like susrprise and so forth come in). You mechanically balance abilities around that framework. There is also the narrative aspect (describing those mechanical effects in a narrative style).

It sounds like you're willing to compromise narrative to adhere to "balance". My groups personally doesn't enjoy that style of play. We want the rules balanced (for certain values of balanced) but then if someone finds a really imaginative or overpowered way to use an ability due to the narrative they are currently in, narrative kicks in and they get to do exactly that.

Why are the enemy rolling initiative? Why are they making a Dex check?

[sarcasm]Why to perceive what's happening around them of course![/sarcasm] Unless the character has tried to hide the fact they're about to attack (in which case it's a sleight of hand vs perception or a deception vs insight) the enemy can see their body language and so when the player says "I attack" they signal with their body language (unless they have stated otherwise) that they're about to attack. If they do try to hide their intent then everyone needs to make a check against the character in order to be able to participate in the surprise round (should one occur). Advantage and disadvantage may be applied to various checks depending on the circumstances.

 

[Flamestrike]

Saying you 'want' to attack works better at my table. When a player has their mind decided to start combat they tell me they want to initiate combat or they 'want' to attack.

Thats why youre finding this so hard to conceptualise. Wanting to attack isnt an action that can be reacted against.

If I am parlaying with some Orcs, they probably want to attack me. But that is not enough for combat to start. It only starts when they act. Then we get inititiative.

Heck, evil cultists probably want to attack everyone.

Then we determine any surprises and then roll initiative.

What are you rolling for exactly? If two people are talking to each other, and one wants to attack the other, and inititive is rolled (although I dont know why, seeing as there is no trigger for anyone else to attack or defend), assuming the person still talking and not 'wanting to atack' wins, what are they to do?

That way you go from narrative to combat and you avoid any awkward situations of the initiator declaring an attack but then roll low initiative.

Thats not an awkward situation. You simply state (to the person that won initiative) what the lower initiative agressor declared they were doing. He's currently halfway through doing that, and the person who won initiative gets a chance to act before hand.

Otherwise youre stuck in the absurd situation of calling for an initiative roll (a Dex check) to react to what someone else is thinking of doing.

It also removes any weird situations where someone is surprised, yet gets their turn before you. In that situation they stay surprised and there is no "reaction" to the "hostile action" that initiated combat to begin with and you don't have someone getting an automatic perception check... The prior example clearly allowed the target to succeed in what would normally require a perception check.

Thats not ridiculous at all. It models a person walking into an ambush and getting a bad feeling, noticing the arrows in mid flight, or whatever and having a split second to react. Remember if theyre surprised due to (for example) getting charged by some orcs who were hidden in some bushes (the orcs have declared theyre charging the party) the Orcs have to charge 30' to reach them. You just narrate it accordingly (you see some Orcs charging at you from some bushes - youre surprised, but can take a single reaction accordingly).

Remember; the Orcs declared they were charging the party from ambush. Thats exactly what theyre doing, and the surprised creature who wins initiative gets the chance to take a reaction before the orcs close the distance and resolve those attacks.

 

[Flamestrike]

[sarcasm]Why to perceive what's happening around them of course![/sarcasm] Unless the character has tried to hide the fact they're about to attack (in which case it's a sleight of hand vs perception or a deception vs insight) the enemy can see their body language and so when the player says "I attack" they signal with their body language (unless they have stated otherwise) that they're about to attack.

Were pretty much on the same page then. When someone decides to attack something gives it away (the actions of the person declaring the action).

I stand 'I attack' is not good enough for me. Who are you attacking? With what?

And between forming the intent to make that attack and the final resolution of that attack, the enemy have a chance to act.

Have a good Dex score. It means youre far more likely to get your attacks off before your enemy can react. Simply being the first to declare it isnt enough.

Although a good houserule to meet in the middle would be allowing the first person to declare they initiate combat to get a +5 to initiative or advantage or something.

 

[Valador]

I can see it both ways. It's been about 6 months since I've played due to moving back to America from Europe, and now that I think about it I think our play falls somewhere in the middle where I totally remember someone declaring something like "I unsheath my sword and go to swing at the ____" and that's when I cut them off, tell them to roll and then allow people to react accordingly along the lines of "so and so draws his sword and approaches you" and due to their roll they can act first. Not sure why I was brain farting before, aside from getting about 3 hours of sleep a night due to spending my time in a hospice with my grandmother and driving hours to and from work while waiting for our house deal to close...

I still don't think that the surprised enemy from before would have a chance to react, based on something akin to a perception check. I think I'd be more inclined to just have them spend their turn in place doing what they were doing prior to initiative rather than perceiving the sound of a bow being drawn, etc. I mean they are still technically surprised, their turn just came before the attacker can execute.

 

[JohnLynch]

Have a good Dex score. It means youre far more likely to get your attacks off before your enemy can react.

That's debateable. I guess it depends on what you consider "far more likely". The highest variance in D&D 5th edition (without expending feats) is a 25% chance. Given enemies are not built using the same rules as PCs the variance can be much smaller than that when facing NPCs (monsters run the whole breadth with Dexterity 25 or Dexterity 2, making any semblance of "far more likely" a complete fiction).

Simply being the first to declare it isnt enough.

Being the first to declare it initiates combat where ANYONE has the chance of attacking first.

Although a good houserule to meet in the middle would be allowing the first person to declare they initiate combat to get a +5 to initiative or advantage or something.

This would simply encourage people yelling "i attack" loudest and quickest. Not exactly the atmosphere I like to create at my gaming table. Could work for other people though.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's debateable. I guess it depends on what you consider "far more likely". The highest variance in D&D 5th edition (without expending feats) is a 25% chance.

Nah man. Even putting aside the Alert feat, bards, champion fighters, swashbucklers and barbarians all get initiative buffs.

And the difference is closer to 50 percent (your opponent can have a Dex of less than 10).

Being the first to declare it initiates combat where ANYONE has the chance of attacking first.

Again, were on a similar page here. You claim the 'intent' is obvious. I might sometimes narrate it that way myself, but generally I narrate it as the act itself has commenced (but not yet been resolved). Makes shooting the NPC who declared an attack a lot more clear cut.

PC: But... but.. he was thinking about going for his weapon... I could see it in his eyes!

This would simply encourage people yelling "i attack" loudest and quickest. Not exactly the atmosphere I like to create at my gaming table. Could work for other people though.

Exactly.

 

[brehobit]

It's a feature, not a bug. Even though you didn't play it like this, the assassins really were designed this way.

.

You keep saying this. May I ask how you know? I feel like it was actually an oversight.

 

[abirdcall]

I still don't think that the surprised enemy from before would have a chance to react, based on something akin to a perception check. I think I'd be more inclined to just have them spend their turn in place doing what they were doing prior to initiative rather than perceiving the sound of a bow being drawn, etc. I mean they are still technically surprised, their turn just came before the attacker can execute.

I think this may be the disconnect.

React in this caes is a game term that means use their reaction to your attack. It does not mean get to act before the attack.

If a creature is surprised and wins initiative, the surpriser still gets to act first.

It's just that if the surprised has a special reaction ability that applies like arrow catching, they can use it.

You still attacked first. It's just that they caught the arrow just before it hit them.

Them spending their turn doing nothing is exactly what happens when they are surprised. It's just on your turn they get to use their reaction if applicable.

 

[Flamestrike]

You keep saying this. May I ask how you know? I feel like it was actually an oversight.

The only oversight I can see is the combat section not expicitly saying that being 'surprised' ends after your first turn in combat.

 

[brehobit]

The only oversight I can see is the combat section not expicitly saying that being 'surprised' ends after your first turn in combat.

Yep. Given that the RAW don't specify that, I suspect that the author of the assassin wash't aware of that. I'm not certain _anyone_ had really thought about it. Just played AL with 2 different DMs this weekend. Neither ran surprise this way. I mentioned it to one and his basic response was: "What? That's dumb."