November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[abirdcall]

You keep saying this. May I ask how you know? I feel like it was actually an oversight.

It has been posted earlier in this thread but Jeremy Crawford has tweeted that this was the intent.

I explained what I think is the thought process more in depth earlier in the thread as well but I will summarize:

If you look at the ability, it is tied to winning initiative.

The main part of the ability is getting advantage on winning initiative. If the assassin was hiding then the ability does nothing so the autocrit is there to give them something when they win initiative and surprise their opponent.

I would expect the autocrit to be listed as a different ability if it wasn't tied directly to the first part about getting advantage on winning initiative. It is basically an elegant solution to the problem of giving them an ability to get advantage when winning initiative. The most common way to get advantage for a rogue will be through gaining surprise through hiding, so they tied to surprise.

While it would be great if they could give reminders in every part of the book that references rules in other parts, and I am sure they would like to, extra pages cost money.

 

[abirdcall]

The only oversight I can see is the combat section not expicitly saying that being 'surprised' ends after your first turn in combat.

It does say that all of the effects of surprise end after your first turn in combat though.

If all of the effects of a condition stop are you still affected by that condition?

Let's say you are lying on the ground and an ability says that you are standing again. Would you say that according to the rules you are still technically prone because the ability didn't say that you are no longer prone, it just nullies the effect?

The only confusion I see here is that this is not the way it worked in previous editions and if you don't read through the section you might just assume there are surprise rounds like there are in other games.

That isn't really a fault of the game. You need to unlearn the other systems.

 

[brehobit]

It does say that all of the effects of surprise end after your first turn in combat though.

Cite? I can't find that in the rules.

 

[abirdcall]

Cite? I can't find that in the rules.

It is on pg 189.

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."

That is the effect of being surprised.

So a surprised creature can't take reactions. If a creature is able to take reactions it is, by definition, not surprised.

Similarly, an incapacitated creature cannot take actions or reactions. If a creature is able to take actions then it is not incapactitated.

A deafened creature can't hear. If a creature can hear, then it is not deafened.

And so on.

I can see the argument that not having surprise in the appendix was an oversight. If other rules are going to refer to it, then it would be nice to have it easy to look up. Still, it is in the index and has a clear heading on the page.

 

[Celtavian]

It is on pg 189.

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."

That is the effect of being surprised.

So a surprised creature can't take reactions. If a creature is able to take reactions it is, by definition, not surprised.

Similarly, an incapacitated creature cannot take actions or reactions. If a creature is able to take actions then it is not incapactitated.

A deafened creature can't hear. If a creature can hear, then it is not deafened.

And so on.

I can see the argument that not having surprise in the appendix was an oversight. If other rules are going to refer to it, then it would be nice to have it easy to look up. Still, it is in the index and has a clear heading on the page.

It's not clear they're not still surprised, but Crawford did clarify elsewhere this is what he intended. It would have been real nice if they had spelled it out clearly with a sentence stating, "Once you can take reactions, you are no longer surprised" or "Once your turn is over on the surprise round, you are no longer surprised." Would have ended any discussion on the matter and made things quite clear.

 

[Flamestrike]

You need to unlearn the other systems.

The Yoda method.

Youre right though. My first few sessions I didnt realise that Shield of faith was a bonus action cast, or that the 'delay' action no longer existed. Similar deal with my first surprise (I just defaulted to 3.P).

You keep saying this. May I ask how you know? I feel like it was actually an oversight.

Here:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/how-to-use-assassin-assassinate/

Just search for 'surprise'. The intent was clear from the start. Its echoed in numerous other tweets too.

First volley = susrprise round etc.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

until someone finds me a rule that says rolling intiative makes you immune to surprise I refuse to play or run it that way...

example: round 3 of a fight between the 3 ogers (well 2 now one died last round) the 4 PCs are surprised by the assassin who attacks from invisibility... Surprise=assassinate. Now you can argue 'well make a stealth check' or not, but if he is unseen and no one knows he is there...it is surprise.

 

[Ristamar]

I think this is one of the worst ways to handle it and sets a bad precedent for other opposed rolls.

If you really want to buff the assassin a more sensible option would be to have the autocrit trigger in the first round regardless of initiative. This would be complete overkill (quite literally in most cases).

It wasn't a proposition as a buff (though it could very well be, if the DM is lenient/generous), and it's not a ruling I'd often make. It was more of a proposal for measured DM fiat when the abstracted mechanics become far too difficult to justify in the circumstances of play.

Regardless, I'd say using Initiative as a secondary Perception check is a worse precedent. Ideally, the Assassinate ability should be reworked.

 

[Noctem]

For those interested, I have a guide which covers surprise and other topics of discussion in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Stealth-Hiding-and-You!&p=6702270#post6702270

As for me, I've always run surprise as ending after your first turn in initiative, the confirmation from JC is nice to have though. And yet, there's people in this thread who argue it doesn't work as described. I don't get it.

As for the initiating surprise bit, I've always followed that whatever prompted surprise (attack, movement, speaking, etc..) was always resolved first. Then, I would look at who didn't notice the threat whatever prompted surprised posed and apply surprise accordingly and finally roll initiative. Whoever doesn't notice a threat, even if plainly visible, is surprised in 5e. It could be the man standing next to you in a crowded market place suddenly stabbing you in the back, the rogue hidden in the darkness of the alley shooting an arrow at you, etc.. Being hidden/rolling stealth is NOT a requirement to initiate surprise! Some of you seem to be under the impression that the only way to cause surprise is to be hidden via rolling stealth vs perception and then attacking or something. It's simply a question of noticing a threat or not which is DM fiat for the monsters and resolved by passive insight / passive perception. These are specifically for this sort of situation! That's what the DM rolls against with his thug as he approaches your character in the marketplace. The DM can even rule that your character is distracted by the wares he's looking at and doesn't even have a CHANCE to notice the thug. I mean it's all there in the rules guys and gals.

I decided to resolve the triggering event, whatever it was, before assigning surprise and rolling initiative for a couple of reasons. 1. It makes most of the arguments presented in this thread moot. 2. It allows the assassin rogue to actually benefit from his archtype feature. 3. It's still completely dependent on the DM allowing for a situation where surprise is even possible in the first place. 4. If done this way, even if the assassin (if there's even one in your game) manages to get surprise (because you allowed it in the first place) makes an attack to initiate surprise (requiring an attack roll which can miss) and crits because of his feature (if he's of the appropriate level) and then rolls initiative and wins (another die roll he can't control) and finally gets ANOTHER attack which might crit if he hits: WHAT DOES IT EVEN MATTER? The enemies are there to be defeated, if you allowed surprise in the first place and then everything went well for the assassin in the group why do you even care about your monsters? Granting surprise to the party is already a big advantage, at that point letting someone take advantage of a class feature is moot. Surprise is in the full control of the DM, just like any scenario presented to the party is. The assassin is happy he got to crit via his feature, the party is happy because the assassin just kicked some butt, the group plan for how to start the encounter worked.. I mean literally everyone at the table is happy and excited! So why does it matter? Many of the people who tell me this is wrong don't seem to grasp that the objections they are making are irrelevant at the table. Who cares if my monster gets 1HKO by the assassin. The point is to have FUN and I made a houserule that I use because it simplifies everything and I don't run into any of the problems listed in this thread.

GL HF.

 

[Ovinomancer]

For those interested, I have a guide which covers surprise and other topics of discussion in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Stealth-Hiding-and-You!&p=6702270#post6702270

As for me, I've always run surprise as ending after your first turn in initiative, the confirmation from JC is nice to have though. And yet, there's people in this thread who argue it doesn't work as described. I don't get it.

As for the initiating surprise bit, I've always followed that whatever prompted surprise (attack, movement, speaking, etc..) was always resolved first. Then, I would look at who didn't notice the threat whatever prompted surprised posed and apply surprise accordingly and finally roll initiative. Whoever doesn't notice a threat, even if plainly visible, is surprised in 5e. It could be the man standing next to you in a crowded market place suddenly stabbing you in the back, the rogue hidden in the darkness of the alley shooting an arrow at you, etc.. Being hidden/rolling stealth is NOT a requirement to initiate surprise! Some of you seem to be under the impression that the only way to cause surprise is to be hidden via rolling stealth vs perception and then attacking or something. It's simply a question of noticing a threat or not which is DM fiat for the monsters and resolved by passive insight / passive perception. These are specifically for this sort of situation! That's what the DM rolls against with his thug as he approaches your character in the marketplace. The DM can even rule that your character is distracted by the wares he's looking at and doesn't even have a CHANCE to notice the thug. I mean it's all there in the rules guys and gals.

I decided to resolve the triggering event, whatever it was, before assigning surprise and rolling initiative for a couple of reasons. 1. It makes most of the arguments presented in this thread moot. 2. It allows the assassin rogue to actually benefit from his archtype feature. 3. It's still completely dependent on the DM allowing for a situation where surprise is even possible in the first place. 4. If done this way, even if the assassin (if there's even one in your game) manages to get surprise (because you allowed it in the first place) makes an attack to initiate surprise (requiring an attack roll which can miss) and crits because of his feature (if he's of the appropriate level) and then rolls initiative and wins (another die roll he can't control) and finally gets ANOTHER attack which might crit if he hits: WHAT DOES IT EVEN MATTER? The enemies are there to be defeated, if you allowed surprise in the first place and then everything went well for the assassin in the group why do you even care about your monsters? The assassin is happy he got to crit via his feature, the party is happy because the assassin just kicked some butt, the group plan for how to start the encounter worked.. I mean literally everyone at the table is happy and excited! So why does it matter? Many of the people who tell me this is wrong don't seem to grasp that the objections they are making are irrelevant at the table. Who cares if my monster gets 1HKO by the assassin. The point is to have FUN and I made a houserule that I use because it simplifies everything and I don't run into any of the problems listed in this thread.

GL HF.

I largely don't like this because it encourages racing to get in your declaration first because it means you get to go first.

DM: "The wizard opens the door to your knocking and..."

Player 1: "I stab him!!!!!"

DM: "What? It's the middle of town and you're here to ask this guy questions!"

Player 1: "Don't care, I think he's dirty and so I stab him. If he's not expecting that, I get to do it for free before initiative, right?"

Player 2: "Hey, I wanted to stab him first!"

Player 1: "Tough, be faster at calling it next time."

DM: "Rocks fall, you all die."