November's SAGE ADVICE Is Here!

November's Sage Advice column by WotC's Jeremy Crawford is up. This month deals with lightfoot halfing and wood elf hiding racial traits, some class features, backgrounds (you can have only one!), muticlassing, surprise rounds in combat, and more. Check out this month's Sage Advice here. The advice here has been added to the Sage Advice Compendium.

 

[abirdcall]

As for the initiating surprise bit, I've always followed that whatever prompted surprise (attack, movement, speaking, etc..) was always resolved first.

So you allow a character to potentially get 3 actions before another one gets 1?

That is ridiculous to put it mildly.

Next game have an NPC do that to a PC. See what happens at the table.

2. It allows the assassin rogue to actually benefit from his archtype feature.

The archetype feature is: Did you win initiative? If yes, get a benefit.

The main part of the feature is to get advantage when you win initiative. The auto crit is an extra benefit put on top to ensure that the archetype feature does something if you win initiative and have surprised the foe.

It's an extra. The main feature is gaining advantage when you win initiative.

It boggles my mind that you have taken the time to write a huge guide and yet get the most important part catastrophically wrong.

 

[abirdcall]

It wasn't a proposition as a buff (though it could very well be, if the DM is lenient/generous), and it's not a ruling I'd often make. It was more of a proposal for measured DM fiat when the abstracted mechanics become far too difficult to justify in the circumstances of play.

Regardless, I'd say using Initiative as a secondary Perception check is a worse precedent. Ideally, the Assassinate ability should be reworked.

It's not a secondary perception check.

The person who surprises still acts before the one who was surprised.

It's just that they are able to react at the last second if they have some sort of special ability that allows them reactions. Like a Monk catching an arrow. The Monk doesn't perceive the assassin, they perceive the arrow as it is about to hit them and their super Monk reflexes to catch it.

Arrows are usually too quick to react to by the time you notice them. Monks are special.

Don't take that away from them.

 

[Noctem]

I largely don't like this because it encourages racing to get in your declaration first because it means you get to go first.

DM: "The wizard opens the door to your knocking and..."

Player 1: "I stab him!!!!!"

DM: "What? It's the middle of town and you're here to ask this guy questions!"

Player 1: "Don't care, I think he's dirty and so I stab him. If he's not expecting that, I get to do it for free before initiative, right?"

Player 2: "Hey, I wanted to stab him first!"

Player 1: "Tough, be faster at calling it next time."

DM: "Rocks fall, you all die."

What you're describing is a completely different problem than the one this thread is talking about. If you have a player who would do this, it has nothing to do with how surprise, initiative, etc.. works. Maybe you didn't see that?

 

[Noctem]

So you allow a character to potentially get 3 actions before another one gets 1?

That is ridiculous to put it mildly.

Next game have an NPC do that to a PC. See what happens at the table.



The archetype feature is: Did you win initiative? If yes, get a benefit.

The main part of the feature is to get advantage when you win initiative. The auto crit is an extra benefit put on top to ensure that the archetype feature does something if you win initiative and have surprised the foe.

It's an extra. The main feature is gaining advantage when you win initiative.

It boggles my mind that you have taken the time to write a huge guide and yet get the most important part catastrophically wrong.

Well to be clear, the guide (since you didn't read it) covers multiple game elements. These include stealth, hiding, light and darkness, invisibility and surprise. You'll forgive me if I forgot something off hand. Furthermore, the guide explains the rules of the game specifically, I'm using a houserule to solve problems that the current system has created when it comes to an archtype feature built around obtaining surprise (which is essentially completely DM fiat and is super easy to control). I just don't want to allow surprise and then after initiative is rolled the assassin learns that he won't get to benefit from his feature because he didn't win initiative and I also don't want to allow surprise all the time to increase the chances of the assassin getting to benefit from it.

So since you immediately dismissed the houserule without even bothering to ask questions about it, I'll give a simple example of how the houserule works in practice:

Bobo the assassin is hiding in darkness. He sees his target getting close, who doesn't notice bobo thanks to his stealth vs passive perception roll which was high enough, and fires his crossbow causing him to lose hidden as a result. At this point, I fully resolve the attack made by bobo. Once the attack is resolved, I look and see who is surprised (if any). Anyone who did not notice bobo as a threat is now surprised. This includes his target if it's still alive. I then have everyone roll initiative and once that's done I follow the initiative order. If bobo's initiative is higher than his target, he can decide to attack his target again with any related benefit for his target being surprised. Then the next person goes and so on. Anyone surprised is surprised until the end of their first turn, after which they are no longer surprised and may take a reaction as normal. And so on.

So the scenario is simple, but it required multiple hoops by the participants to even allow for the "catastrophic" stuff you lament yourself about:

- Surprise was allowed by the DM. Let's face it, surprise simply doesn't happen at the table without DM approval. The entire scenario requires the DM to allow it to happen every step of the way. So by allowing an assassin to get surprise, you really shouldn't get to complain afterwards.
- Stealth vs passive perception had to be successful. If bobo had not managed to be hidden from his target, it would have noticed bobo and surprise could have been lost as a result based on DM fiat. This is because who an NPC considers a threat is up to the DM. Likewise, based on the description and story telling of the DM, the PC will decide who is a threat and who is not.
- Multiple attacks had to hit.
- initiative had to be high enough to beat the target's result so that you can benefit from the feature in question.
- Insert item here because basically the scenario could have multiple other hoops inserted or complications or consequences that I don't list here.

The reality is that you're doing what's called a knee jerk reaction. It's ok, it happens, but that doesn't mean that my suggested houserule is catastrophically wrong as you put it. If you want to discuss this further, feel free to suggest a scenario and we can discuss it so you can put your catastrophic fears to rest over the well being of my NPC's.

Lastly, I don't implement houserules without first discussing them openly with the group and voting if the houserule is used or not. I'm just explaining that for our group, the houserule has worked very well to remove problems we encountered with the current system as it stands and to make the assassin feature less rocket tag and more consistent across the board. And yes, it worked both ways and sometimes an NPC did get to have the triggering attack to start combat.

An example anecdote would be that the advisor to the king decided to murder the king at the ball. By the rules, I would of had to interrupt the party in the middle of the ball, ask for initiative for no reason (since nothing had happened yet that the party was aware of), roll initiative, win initiative and if I hadn't wait around for the advisor's turn to come up while the player's got even more confused, attack the king, and so on. VS with the houserule, the advisor kills the king out of nowhere, everyone is surprised, he runs off as people panic and the guards fumble to grab weapons and the encounter starts with the advisor running or whatever. I mean it's so much more fluid and immersive for everyone isn't it? feedback welcome of course.

 

[Noctem]

It's not a secondary perception check.

The person who surprises still acts before the one who was surprised.

It's just that they are able to react at the last second if they have some sort of special ability that allows them reactions. Like a Monk catching an arrow. The Monk doesn't perceive the assassin, they perceive the arrow as it is about to hit them and their super Monk reflexes to catch it.

Arrows are usually too quick to react to by the time you notice them. Monks are special.

Don't take that away from them.

A surprised monk can't use a reaction to catch an arrow until after their first turn in combat, at which point they are no longer surprised which is why can use a reaction.

 

[Ristamar]

It's not a secondary perception check.

The person who surprises still acts before the one who was surprised.

It's just that they are able to react at the last second if they have some sort of special ability that allows them reactions. Like a Monk catching an arrow. The Monk doesn't perceive the assassin, they perceive the arrow as it is about to hit them and their super Monk reflexes to catch it.

Arrows are usually too quick to react to by the time you notice them. Monks are special.

Don't take that away from them.

It's a secondary Perception check in the sense that it's a die roll that allows the victim to perceive something they already missed by definition of the existing Stealth versus Perception mechanics. If you don't like the label "secondary Perception check," we can call it whatever you'd like, but it still allows the victim another chance to notice something is amiss even when they previously failed to notice any signs of danger.

In most scenarios, I don't mind the implication of the fiction behind the mechanics, and it often does not amount to a material difference in play. Sure, you can surprise someone, then attack first yet lose initiative. The target would see it coming at the last second, but may not be able to act accordingly. And, yes, if the target was a monk, he may be able to deflect an arrow before it hits that mark.

I do, however, find it somewhat questionable that an Initiative roll (an ability check) can drastically affect a single subclass' signature abilities beyond his skill to remain hidden or disguised, and I bristle at the implication that Initiative is a "special" opposed roll that cannot ever be adjudicated like any other ability check.

 

[abirdcall]

A surprised monk can't use a reaction to catch an arrow until after their first turn in combat, at which point they are no longer surprised which is why can use a reaction.

Which you don't allow. That is the problem.

It's a secondary Perception check in the sense that it's a die roll that allows the victim to perceive something they already missed by definition of the existing Stealth versus Perception mechanics.

No it isn't. Characters don't preemptively roll for stealth on their arrow shots. They roll for stealth for sneaking.

The initiative roll represents their reflexes and whether they are able to react to a stimulus that they can perceive such as an arrow that is about to strike them.

This is super human stuff here. People can't catch arrows but Monks can. Don't take that away from them.

 

[abirdcall]

I'm using a houserule to solve problems that the current system has created when it comes to an archtype feature built around obtaining surprise

This is the problem with creating houserules when you don't understand the standard rules.

The archetype feature is built around getting a bonus when you win initiative.

They get to use their ability in 2/3-3/4 of all combats or even more if combat with multiple creatures occur frequently.

The main part of their archetype feature is to gain advantage when they win initiative. Since they would already have advantage if they were attacking from hiding, if they win initiative and surprise the opponent they get a further benefit.

By misinterpreting the ability and creating houserules around it you are nerfing many other classes.

 

[Ristamar]

No it isn't. Characters don't preemptively roll for stealth on their arrow shots. They roll for stealth for sneaking.

So when my player's Assassin asks why he doesn't get to activate the benefits of his class, I should tell him that while he is very stealthy, his arrow isn't quite as sneaky because the target was reacting to stimulus it didn't technically perceive?

 

[abirdcall]

So when my player's Assassin asks why he doesn't get to activate the benefits of his class, I should tell him that while he is very stealthy, his arrow isn't quite as sneaky because the target was reacting to stimulus it didn't technically perceive?

You should tell him that the benefits of his class involve him winning initiative.

That is what the power does.

Do you have the same conversation when the fighter misses with an attack?

The assassin failing to hit the heart because of any number of reasons is an extremely common trope. This isn't hard.

It is your job to set the expectations of the game ahead of time. In my game if a player wants to play an assassin I explain the class to them. I explain that it is a group game and while they will have opportunities to gain surprise it won't be every combat or even often. I explain that their power is quite good in that they wil often get advantage on their first attack which can help to turn the tide of battle. But I also explain that the other rogue archetypes are broader and to only take the assassin if they want that narrow specialty.

If you want to run a cloak and dagger game which is all about being sneaky and autokilling everything, and looking over their backs for the same, then go nuts. I think 5e is a poor rule system for that sort of game but you are free to do what you like. Just know what you are doing.

Assassinate is an initiative power. It has been clarified that it was intentionally designed that way. You misinterpreting it doesn't make the design bad.

I will reiterate: It is keyed off of winning initiative - Not on surprising. Surprising just changes the type of benefit you get when you win initiative because advantage would be redundant.

Is that clear now?