Eternalknight
First Post
What do you think it's strengths and weaknesses are? Do you think D&D, or more importantly the d20 system, is a success or a failure? What can you see in the future of D&D and the d20 system?
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Now that 3rd edition has been around for almost 2 years....
- Thread starter Eternalknight
- Start date
Frostmarrow
First Post
Eternalknight said:
Needless to say D&D 3ed is a huge success. When first released critics claimed that the system wasn't really new at all. It only featured good rules that had appeared in other games before d20. However, now I think it's safe to say that d20 has revolutionized the role-playing hobby. The thing d20 has brought us that is new is balance. It has brought us a system that has a stong integrity from low-levels and up. It's an amazing engine.
The weakness of the system in my opinion is a lack of symbolism. Your character is a product of race, class, religion and alignment. In earlier versions your character's social status, background and age was important too but not anymore. You count your levels but earlier you had a title to go with it. I feel more could have been done in this department.
In the future I hope we will get books on role-playing, symbolism and background rather than dungeons, prestige classes and feats.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
The D20/D&D System uses very good defined mechanics, and it is much more stream lined than most other systems, and it is easy to understand, even if you use the more complex parts of it.
The D20 system is statistically very predictable and it is easy to understand what a modifier to a DC / roll does. (Unlike, as an example, with the D6 system of Shadowrun, where a single +2 modifier can make a simple task to a nearly impossible thing, which makes it hard to give some realistic DCs)
Character advancement is good reflected with the level system (unlike, again, Shadowrun, where the main difference between new and old characters are their Karma Pool and their equipment, but their skills vary little, and even if they do, they don`t improve your character well)
The disadvantages so far:
Not everyone likes a class based system, and my main grip here is that combat is not a part of the skill system.
In fact the whole levelling thing mainly tends to support combat oriented game-style, and sometimes, roleplaying suffers.
The magic system is difficult to change into something that works with Drain, though Starwars (even if I don`t like it) and to some extent the psionic classes give ways out of this.
Another disadvantage our group is confronted very often:
To many designers invent new settings and some rule changes, but to few design some good adventures that use the setting or the changes.
Mustrum Ridcully
The D20 system is statistically very predictable and it is easy to understand what a modifier to a DC / roll does. (Unlike, as an example, with the D6 system of Shadowrun, where a single +2 modifier can make a simple task to a nearly impossible thing, which makes it hard to give some realistic DCs)
Character advancement is good reflected with the level system (unlike, again, Shadowrun, where the main difference between new and old characters are their Karma Pool and their equipment, but their skills vary little, and even if they do, they don`t improve your character well)
The disadvantages so far:
Not everyone likes a class based system, and my main grip here is that combat is not a part of the skill system.
In fact the whole levelling thing mainly tends to support combat oriented game-style, and sometimes, roleplaying suffers.
The magic system is difficult to change into something that works with Drain, though Starwars (even if I don`t like it) and to some extent the psionic classes give ways out of this.
Another disadvantage our group is confronted very often:
To many designers invent new settings and some rule changes, but to few design some good adventures that use the setting or the changes.
Mustrum Ridcully
tleilaxu
First Post
i think third edition is great! my only problem is the sacred cow of seperating divine and arcane magic. i think this is an artificial boundary and should ideally be made more flexible. i don't know any priests who walk around in plate armor carrying maces. even in the middle ages this was not that common. but that is what it has become. in short: just the magic system.
jollyninja
First Post
i would say that financially d20 is most likley a success. to many companies are still in buisiness for it to be called otherwise. i love the system and think the ogl is great but my main gripe with the whole thing is alot of third party publishers do not seem to look at how their products fit into the game as a whole, creating prestige classes and feats that are horribly unbalanced, bringing back 2e/1e concepts that do not really fit 3e particularly well. the whole thing about the system is supposed to be balance but alot of the time the third party stuff is most certianly not. i'm not saying that WotC is perfect in every way or anything but at least i have only come across a couple of things that have caused horrid munchkining in my groups that originated within a WotC book (tempest prestige class) while allmost the entire set of prc's in the quintessential fighter are in my opinion little more then attempts to make DnD's theoretical "combat machines" even more powerful in every way. limiting what weapons the character gets his bonuses with does not balance the prestige class in any way. what living blade is ever not going to have his weapon of choice around? the master archer will allways have his bow handy. all in all i suppose i am glad that so much product exists just because it allows me more options but most of the non WotC stuff sees little or no use in my games so it has in the end failed me at the verry least.
S
shurai
Guest
Speaking for myself, I think the D&D game has been enormously successful. d20 games in general is another matter, though the OGL is a great leap forward in my eyes. Truthfully I love D&D, and play it usually once or twice a week.
Speaking for myself, I can say that the d20 system doesn't impress me much outside the medeival roleplaying genre, though. I don't think the classes-and-levels model or the combat system models real life as well as some other systems out there.
Truthfully it gets on my nerves how games that I've liked for some time have fallen prey to the d20 virus. I like WEG Star Wars a lot better than d20 Star Wars, and truthfully it pains me to see a setting I enjoy take what I see to be a step backwards in game design. I realize that WEG Star Wars isn't as well-balanced as d20 Star Wars seems to be, but there's more to life than balance.
I hate to be a naysayer, but the d20 system seems to be an outmoded concept in roleplaying game design that happens to be executed very well. It reminds me of Japanese firearm design: They perfected the design of the matchlock, and had the best matchlock guns in the world, but by the time they did everyone else had moved on to better technology.
I have to disagree with those who think the d20 system has revolutionized roleplaying. I think D&D has probably done so, just because it's the biggest fish in the pond. Any good game with the kind of market clout that D&D had to begin with could've done so, but such a game need not be a revolution in thought. Neither D&D nor d20 offer any revolutionary new ideas, which is what really matters to me.
All of this is just my humble opinion, of course.![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
Speaking for myself, I can say that the d20 system doesn't impress me much outside the medeival roleplaying genre, though. I don't think the classes-and-levels model or the combat system models real life as well as some other systems out there.
Truthfully it gets on my nerves how games that I've liked for some time have fallen prey to the d20 virus. I like WEG Star Wars a lot better than d20 Star Wars, and truthfully it pains me to see a setting I enjoy take what I see to be a step backwards in game design. I realize that WEG Star Wars isn't as well-balanced as d20 Star Wars seems to be, but there's more to life than balance.
I hate to be a naysayer, but the d20 system seems to be an outmoded concept in roleplaying game design that happens to be executed very well. It reminds me of Japanese firearm design: They perfected the design of the matchlock, and had the best matchlock guns in the world, but by the time they did everyone else had moved on to better technology.
I have to disagree with those who think the d20 system has revolutionized roleplaying. I think D&D has probably done so, just because it's the biggest fish in the pond. Any good game with the kind of market clout that D&D had to begin with could've done so, but such a game need not be a revolution in thought. Neither D&D nor d20 offer any revolutionary new ideas, which is what really matters to me.
All of this is just my humble opinion, of course.
Barendd Nobeard
Explorer
shurai said:
D20 games don't have to have classes. See, for example, Call of Cthulhu d20. Same basic engine (the d20 system) as D&D 3e, but no classes.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
I think it's good, not mindblowing or anything but good. I think it handles D&D well, but since it requires a new, thick as hell, rulebook to play beyond 20th level I think they could have maybe done some things different to remove that problem. I've been talking to some people about d20 star wars and most of them when asked why they like it better than the d6 version is balance. Well some games need more than just balance, like SW. From what I'm being told you can't even replicate what the Jedi do in the movies with the current rules, and level limits cause major NPC's to have stripped down abilities to make them fit withing the classes. I don't want to see most games go d20, I like variety and don't like the thought of most publishers putting out new d20 based editions of their games and abandoning the old systems. That hasn't happened with COC so there is hope. So while I have some gripes about how it handles certain aspects of D&D I think it's a strong system for fantasy gaming.
Wolfen Priest
First Post
Eternalknight said:
I agree with the earlier posters that 2d0 is a very strong system for fantasy roleplaying. I will also agree that it may not work as well for other kinds of systems, Star Wars in particular.
I played for years using WEG's crumby d6 system, and you know what? It was fun. I can't even imagine it being any fun at all using the d20 rules. But that brings me to my ultimate point, and possibly it has to do with the fact that, let's face it: the new Star Wars movies really suck. And I mean both of them.
But look at Lord of the Rings. Fricken AWESOME movie, almost everyone agrees. It got a nomination for Best Picture, for crying out loud! And the next two will be as good if not much better!
So what's my point? Just that I think fantasy roleplaying is on the rise, and frankly, I don't care because I think fantasy is much more interesting than sci-fi. And I used to be just the opposite. So, if 3e caters mainly to fantasy roleplaying, so be it. The birth of roleplaying was in fantasy.
Foundry of Decay
First Post
I'm on the opposite side when it comes to D20 SW, but then again, I was always the black puppy in the batch 
In short, while I liked the D6 system, it got retarded after the 6th or 7th session, because of the impossibly slow combat (Okay, I roll my 12 d6's, minusing 2 dice for a dodge and some running). Also, anything but a Jedi, in the games I've run, and played, turned into simple ferry pilots after a while. Jedi would DOMINATE any and every combat on the ground (and some ship battles too, depending on what they put into skills and such).
Eep, but I'm hijacking here..
I personally think 3e and the D20 systems are successes. 3e is a major success in both revitalizing a system that was becoming harder and harder to stick band-aids onto for the bloodloss, and D20 for giving more choices to people, and allowing folks to finally be able to both publish, or even just give away online stuff which was *impossible* to do due to lawsuits with the older editions.
Some strengths are:
Quicker combat.. Well, I find that anyway. Yes, there is a lot more choice, but my group picked up easily on those choices, and still tend to think creatively during combat (Like jumping on the backs of big things and hacking at them, using chairs and tables as weapons etc). It has also streamlined things in that all you need is a high roll on a d20 to succeed.
Guilds mean something. One thing I didn't care for in the old editions was that guilds were simply something that you paid into, and got little out of. I'm sure in one of the net full of supplements they released that some guilds offered concrete benefits, but I never found any. In 3e, you could easily make up a Prestige class that was specific to the guild, or just plunder a pre-made one that fit the situation.
Melding.. Well, for me it's good to have D20 type settings introduced, but only for my own selfish reasons of honestly having no time, or inclination to learn more and more differing rules. In my youth, I was more than able to try all sorts of systems, and had fun doing so, but I just don't have any free time anymore, and learning the 3e system now allows me to pick up the new SW book, learn the odd little differences, and then play quickly.
Gripes:
Too much material in too many seperate sources.. Sometimes there is just too much to absorb. I have a player who isn't able to buy every single book that comes out, and while I like to introduce some feats from different sources, it's hard for him to have his characters take advantage of those feats, because the books aren't available to him (*Note: I trust my players enough to let them make their PC's up at home before we start, thus one player is left out of the 'alt' feats.. I don't keep the books from him when we play together or anything).
20th level cap.. Well, ok, I consider this to be a niddly little complaint, because I've NEVER had a character grow past 6th level in the new edition, but only because of time constraints. But having a general rule to allow the gamers who can plow though levels every week to go past 20th would be cool. Again, this is just a minor complaint. I personally haven't a clue what it's like to play someone on that high a power level
Psionics not supported as core.. I was sort of disappointed by this. I'm not saying that there is lack of support. Heck Dragon and online sources have lots of new Psi stuff. But I wish there was more effort put into making Psionics a core component.
Meh, enough of my rambling.
In short, while I liked the D6 system, it got retarded after the 6th or 7th session, because of the impossibly slow combat (Okay, I roll my 12 d6's, minusing 2 dice for a dodge and some running). Also, anything but a Jedi, in the games I've run, and played, turned into simple ferry pilots after a while. Jedi would DOMINATE any and every combat on the ground (and some ship battles too, depending on what they put into skills and such).
Eep, but I'm hijacking here..
I personally think 3e and the D20 systems are successes. 3e is a major success in both revitalizing a system that was becoming harder and harder to stick band-aids onto for the bloodloss, and D20 for giving more choices to people, and allowing folks to finally be able to both publish, or even just give away online stuff which was *impossible* to do due to lawsuits with the older editions.
Some strengths are:
Quicker combat.. Well, I find that anyway. Yes, there is a lot more choice, but my group picked up easily on those choices, and still tend to think creatively during combat (Like jumping on the backs of big things and hacking at them, using chairs and tables as weapons etc). It has also streamlined things in that all you need is a high roll on a d20 to succeed.
Guilds mean something. One thing I didn't care for in the old editions was that guilds were simply something that you paid into, and got little out of. I'm sure in one of the net full of supplements they released that some guilds offered concrete benefits, but I never found any. In 3e, you could easily make up a Prestige class that was specific to the guild, or just plunder a pre-made one that fit the situation.
Melding.. Well, for me it's good to have D20 type settings introduced, but only for my own selfish reasons of honestly having no time, or inclination to learn more and more differing rules. In my youth, I was more than able to try all sorts of systems, and had fun doing so, but I just don't have any free time anymore, and learning the 3e system now allows me to pick up the new SW book, learn the odd little differences, and then play quickly.
Gripes:
Too much material in too many seperate sources.. Sometimes there is just too much to absorb. I have a player who isn't able to buy every single book that comes out, and while I like to introduce some feats from different sources, it's hard for him to have his characters take advantage of those feats, because the books aren't available to him (*Note: I trust my players enough to let them make their PC's up at home before we start, thus one player is left out of the 'alt' feats.. I don't keep the books from him when we play together or anything).
20th level cap.. Well, ok, I consider this to be a niddly little complaint, because I've NEVER had a character grow past 6th level in the new edition, but only because of time constraints. But having a general rule to allow the gamers who can plow though levels every week to go past 20th would be cool. Again, this is just a minor complaint. I personally haven't a clue what it's like to play someone on that high a power level
Psionics not supported as core.. I was sort of disappointed by this. I'm not saying that there is lack of support. Heck Dragon and online sources have lots of new Psi stuff. But I wish there was more effort put into making Psionics a core component.
Meh, enough of my rambling.
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