Now that 3rd edition has been around for almost 2 years....

[mmadsen]

These heroes tend to start out as average people, but over time they develop into almost superhuman heroes.

What heroic fantasy is D&D emulating where the heroes start as nobodies and end up as epic heroes along the lines of Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Achilles, etc.?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Is it a success. Yes, it obviously is. The real quesiton is should it be a success. Answer, not to the degree it is. It is a decent system, but far from fantastic.

Not going to list all my flaws, but the combat, feats mechanic and class desing lets just say I'd do differently. Me I'd of rolled combat, spells, everything into the skill mechanic. That's the big system as a whole problem I have. Then their are tons of little detail problems found in every system depending on your gaming style.

I won't say class systems are outdated or whatever, but I prefer non clas systems or if using a class systems I prefer a more flexible class system than d&d.

What d&d has going for it is tons of supplements, and a large player base. I know plenty of people who play it, even those who love other systems play it because there are players for it. Also it seems to fall in some middle ground where players of different systems preferences can compromize and agree to play d&d if not their favorite system.

 

[EOL]

Is it a success. Yes, it obviously is. The real quesiton is should it be a success. Answer, not to the degree it is. It is a decent system, but far from fantastic.

This begs the question which system is fantastic?

Perhaps D&D isn't realistic enough so you add two kinds of damage and you seperate how difficult it is to hit someone from how difficult it is to damage them. Next thing you know it's less fun because combat is so much slower.

Perhaps you get rid of classes? Well then it takes the DM much longer to create an adventure and they're not as good. In addition you open up a whole ton of min-max situations which are not easily dealt with.

Is D&D fantastic? Probably not is it to rip-off Churchill "The worst role-playing system except for every other role-playing system?" Possibly, but I think every time you try and correct one percieved failing you realize that you've created a worse one.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I don't see how I am necessarily any snippier than you are.



Are you saying they agree that there will be a new edition? They can say anything they want; I don't think it's going to happen and I have no need to hold myself to the opinions of some people I don't know. This isn't a vote. And I trust my knowledge of the industry and how it operates over some people hanging out in some game shop. So unless someone in your game shop knows someone inside WotC: I'll beleive it when I see it.

Damn, I thought it was a scientific poll!

 

[FireLance]

What heroic fantasy is D&D emulating where the heroes start as nobodies and end up as epic heroes along the lines of Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Achilles, etc.?

Agreed, not all fantasy characters follow the "commoner to epic hero" path, and such characters may not even be the main protagonist when they are chronicled.

However, off the top of my head, I can think of the following heros that fit this mould:

1. Merry and Pippin from Lord of the Rings.
2. Belgarion from the Belgariad (although at one point he seems to have picked up 10 levels of sorcerer overnight).
3. Taran from the Chronicles of Prydain (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron, The Castle of Llyr, Taran Wanderer and The High King).

 

[hong]

However, off the top of my head, I can think of the following heros that fit this mould:

1. Merry and Pippin from Lord of the Rings.
2. Belgarion from the Belgariad (although at one point he seems to have picked up 10 levels of sorcerer overnight).
3. Taran from the Chronicles of Prydain (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron, The Castle of Llyr, Taran Wanderer and The High King).

4. Luke Skywalker.

Speaking of which, the following was not by me:[*]

Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: The measure of a movie is
From: Douglas Bailey <trystero@world.std.com>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 17:56:03 GMT
--------
hairyokie@home.com wrote:

> "This will be a day long remembered, it has seen the end of Obi Wan, it
> will soon see the end of the rebellion."

Come to think of it, that's really a hell of a day. I'd love to see
Luke's diary:

"WEDNESDAY, 15 May: Got up. Worked on vaporators all morning. Was going
to go into Toshi Station to pick up some power convertors, but Uncle
Owen made me stay and clean up some new droids he bought from the Jawas.
The new astro droid malfunctioned and showed a hologram of a pretty
girl: I took off the restraining bolt, but there wasn't any more to the
message. Then, while I was at dinner, the dumb astro droid ran away.
Damn, I wish I was at the Academy."

"THURSDAY, 16 May: Got up and went after astro droid in speeder. Found
him, but was attacked by Tusken Raiders and saved by old Ben Kenobi, who
turns out to actually be Obi-Wan Kenobi, ex-General and Jedi Knight
(like my dad, supposedly). Got dad's lightsaber from Obi-... uh, Ben,
who also mentioned something called 'The Force.' While driving Ben to
Anchorhead, found my farmstead burnt out by Imperial troops, along with
smoking remains of Uncle Owen/Aunt Beru. Went with Ben to Mos Eisley:
hired freighter, lifted off under fire from Imperial troops. Trained in
Force use by Ben. Flew to Alderaan, except it's not there any more:
captured by Imperial 'Death Star' space station. While on board,
discovered and rescued Princess Leia. Ben killed by Darth Vader. Flew to
Rebel base, got X-Wing fighter and fought in Battle of Yavin, destroying
Death Star via Force use and returning as one of only handful of
survivors."

"FRIDAY, 17 May: Slept late."

That's one *busy* day...

doug

[*] But it should have been, dammit.

 

[S'mon]

Agreed, not all fantasy characters follow the "commoner to epic hero" path, and such characters may not even be the main protagonist when they are chronicled.

However, off the top of my head, I can think of the following heros that fit this mould:

1. Merry and Pippin from Lord of the Rings.
2. Belgarion from the Belgariad (although at one point he seems to have picked up 10 levels of sorcerer overnight).
3. Taran from the Chronicles of Prydain (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron, The Castle of Llyr, Taran Wanderer and The High King).

'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings' seem classic examples of this. It seems rarer in other fantasy novels - Grey Mouser & Fafhrd seem at least 3rd level when first encountered, Conan likewise. But in sword & sorcery movies it's a common theme - from Excalibur (and the Arthurian cycle in general), Conan the Barbarian, The Beastmaster, etc...

 

[hong]

'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings' seem classic examples of this. It seems rarer in other fantasy novels - Grey Mouser & Fafhrd seem at least 3rd level when first encountered, Conan likewise. But in sword & sorcery movies it's a common theme - from Excalibur (and the Arthurian cycle in general), Conan the Barbarian, The Beastmaster, etc...

And anyway, there's no law that states characters have to be 1st level when play begins. The last campaign I DMed (which was admittedly rather short), the PCs started at 4th. The next one will probably start at 3rd.

 

[S'mon]

BTW I agree strongly that classes and levels are the core of D&D - if I didn't want them I'd play a different game. d20 has done a good job of streamlining the stats and skills systems, while retaining the carrot of level advancement and the class system which encourages parties of diverse abilities to work together - although it's now possible to create 'generalist' PCs for those who want them, after a while IMO they're noticeably weaker than a group of single-classed, the best of both worlds.

I think attacking D&D for its emphasis on combat, treasure (& magic) grabbing, and level advancement is to attack it for being D&D - fundamentally pointless. It's fine to make a d20-based game that omits these features (Traveller:The New Era ca 1992 is basically this, albeit it was an sf game), but IMO D&D itself cannot and should not be changed. I returned to D&D with 3e after several years away during the 2e hell because I wanted a better version of the old game I knew and loved, and I wasn't disappointed.

Re the 3e combat system and attacks of opportunity - it's a great miniatures skirmish game. It's got me painting and using my minis collection again. Without minis it admittedly does suck.

 

[Eternalknight]

Re the 3e combat system and attacks of opportunity - it's a great miniatures skirmish game. It's got me painting and using my minis collection again. Without minis it admittedly does suck.

Agreed!!! I left Warhammer for the reason it was too expensive, but now I have a reason to use all my models again!