Now that 3rd edition has been around for almost 2 years....

A lot of those things that are sacred cows are what players who have been playing for years want in D&D. I know I don't want a total change in the whole system. I don't want a spell point system, or anything that will change the whole flavor of the game. D&D shouldn't be like any other generic fantasy game.
 

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Flexor the Mighty! said:
I forgot one gripe with d20. The system is so tightly integrated it takes a lot of work to ignore or redo rules. Drop one thing and a bunch of other things are affected. It's not as easy to house rule as 1e was.

You mean its integrated areas are more obvious. 1e had integrated mechanics too, except it's easier to just over look the consequences of chances.

For example, take the weapon vs AC modifiers it uses. Weapons like morning stars are especially good against heavy armor and weapons like staves are especially crappy. When you look at the class weapon lists, wizards become even worse in combat because all their weapons have crappy modifiers in addition to the wizard's crappy hit chart. Clerics are the other way around - they can use bludgeoning weapons including morning stars, and thus have very good modified attacks against low ACs. Without the modifiers, a wizard's combat ability goes up, and cleric's effective ability goes down. Everyone who can tends to use long swords, as opposed to the wide variety of weapons supported by the weapon versus armor rules.

Thus, there is a big difference, although nothing is spelled out like in 3e - where a similar simplification like removing AoO means that you obviously have to change Combat Reflexes, concentration, reach weapons etc.
 

Eternalknight said:
What do you think it's strengths and weaknesses are? Do you think D&D, or more importantly the d20 system, is a success or a failure? What can you see in the future of D&D and the d20 system?

In inverted order:

"Difficult to see the future is." I think new d20 publishers are going to slow. I see less and less room for new items that aren't repeated. Take for example how Green Ronin has teamed up with another publisher vice print stuff in the same category. However, d20 Modern may see a new spurt of growth.

Is the d20 system a success? I pretty much think so. D&D itself wears very well from what I have seen, and does a good job of walking the line between GM utility and player options.

The d20 system itself -- as was to be expected, many vendors put out crap... and most of their stuff was decried as crap. But other vendors (and WotC themselves) turned out the topnotch stuff.

I knew the d20 system was a success when my group herophile asked me if there was a d20 system game that would be good for modern conspiracy. I smiled slyly and ponied up Spycraft. In other venues, I have seen the d20 wave overcome many emotively defensive system advocates. When people out in the market -- not just participants in forums -- realize the advantages of d20, you know that d20 has succeeded on a grassroots level.

Soon my group will be experimenting with Spycraft and d20 SW, where a year ago Shadowrun was the alternative-to-D&D game of choice.

That said, in some ways the d20 system/effort has fallen short of the mark. I haven't seen the sort of cross-pollenization and improvement of concepts in the OGC that I was hoping for, and some vendors are deliberately excluding some of their best material from the OGC pool.

Strengths and weaknesses of D&D:

Strengths
  • Simple, flexible core mechanic (and, I might add, not another tired dice pool system.)
  • Class based system makes for simpler chargen, strong character roles, and strong team dynamic. Further, it enforces logical, consistent characters with a minimum of GM fuss.
  • Prestige classes gave GMs a tool to make elite groups in the game meaningful
  • Feat system provides for simple character enhancment options without tedious point accounting
  • Spell system likewise allows characters to do interesting things in a fairly balanced fashion without tedious accounting of "mana points" or rolling
  • Combat system hits heroic feel well
  • Relatively easy to extend

Weaknesses
  • System needs a more formal method for creating and modifying character classes
  • Clerics of different faiths are too similar
  • BAB might have been better off worked into the skill system.
  • NPC classes seem too built on the adventurer model (SW is better.)
  • The arcane/divine dichotomy bugs me (not as it stands so much as when I try to do modifications.)
  • Some magic seems a little to low level and/or convenient.

Overall, I consider these weaknesses fairly tolerable compared to many other games on the market. And I vehemently disagree with others here that think it doesn't do well outside of fantasy. I think d20 SW and Spycraft are excellent games. I think d20 SW is so much better than WEG SW that it is not even funny.

Further, in no way are classes "outmoded". That's a popular diatribe that point-based fiends constantly yammer, but there is no objective truth to it. Point based systems are easily abused and all too often lead to characters with no focus and with illogical sets of capabilities. Characters made under point based systems that are logical and consistent tend to fall along the lines of character classes anyways.

And I say this as someone who thinks HERO is the bee's knees. But I know its weaknesses.

That is not to say I think it can do everything well. I still have doubts at how effective it will be in superhero genres. Both d20 superhero games I have seen to date have failed to impress me. Mutants & Masterminds could be phenomenal, but for the time being I anticipate that MEGS and HERO will be my first choice for supers gaming (for high power and low power respectively.)
 

As for Psion, ditto for me - except replace the HERO with GURPS.


d20 is a success, that answer is written in stone. If nothing else, the OGL and the ability for 3rd party publishers to release D&D compatible products freely for the rest of time is the biggest gift that WotC could have ever given the community at large. He should give Ryan Dancey an eternal vote of thanks if for nothing else that that.
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
A lot of those things that are sacred cows are what players who have been playing for years want in D&D. I know I don't want a total change in the whole system. I don't want a spell point system, or anything that will change the whole flavor of the game. D&D shouldn't be like any other generic fantasy game.

Uh... I might be wrong here but isn't D&D becoming a generic fantasy game with the OGL and d20? Also the new contest with the new world has some similar pull towards the current settings out there. Or am I reading you wrong? I fail to see what other "generic" settings you are referring to...

edit: typo
 
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Well there are certain things that are D&D and the game would lose some of the flavor I like if they were removed. If the game was redone with Damage reduction and health/Vitality points instead of armor class & hit points I think it would lose something. If they did a spell point or mana based magic system I feel it would lose something. Sure it's "generic" but it's got that D&D feel.

Psion: I'm not so sure that d20 SW is an improvment over d6. For one Yoda is easily adapted to show his abilities as diplayed in ATOC in d6. Give him some more points and add the stuff you need. In d20 you are limited because you must keep him within his class abilities. If you add some ranks of ability enhance or battlemind you must compensate by dropping skills in other areas. Now stuff like that wouldn't be an issue for some. But if I read the book and see that Yoda couldn't possibly battle Dooku like he did in the flick I get dissapointed. I'm sure it's a lot more balanced, but I don't know if it captures the "feel" of SW like d6 did. I don't have the d20 SW book so I could be off, I've been researching it on the wizards BB to see if I would like how it runs. I'm thinking I'll just stick with d6 or maybe run it in GURPS. Plus I know they will put out a new re-revised core book after the next movie, even if the system doesn't need one.
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
Psion: I'm not so sure that d20 SW is an improvment over d6. For one Yoda is easily adapted to show his abilities as diplayed in ATOC in d6. Give him some more points and add the stuff you need. In d20 you are limited because you must keep him within his class abilities.

Yoda is a rather niggly details, and his stats were made in advance of the movie with minimal preliminary information to go on. So of course it is easy for you to bash the representation of Yoda. But just like WEG SW, they can rearrange the assortment of skills.

The paramount question in how does it play for typical players?

I'm sure it's a lot more balanced, but I don't know if it captures the "feel" of SW like d6 did.

The "feel" of Star Wars isn't "the Jedi dominates and the rest of the characters are backdrops." The speed of combat also isn't served well by tedious roll-offs with handfuls of dice. Sorry, but I am afraid I must vehemently disagree here.

I don't have the d20 SW book

Oh, yeah. You are qualified to judge.


Plus I know they will put out a new re-revised core book after the next movie, even if the system doesn't need one.

You "know" this? How do you "know" this? You have reliable inside info on product scedules 3 years in the future? I doubt even WotC knows what they are going to do 3 years from now.

At any rate, I severely doubt it. I could see them putting out a complete "republic era" sourcebook after the next movie comes out. But a whole new edition of the core rulebook? I don't think so. It's not as justified as putting out the RCRB this time was.
 
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Like I said in my post,
"I don't have the d20 SW book so I could be off, I've been researching it on the wizards BB to see if I would like how it runs."

I don't know why you seem to always reply with snippy answers when someone doesn't love d20 as much as you seem to. I stated in my post that I didn't have the book and was going on what I've been reading on the sw bb at wizards site, and from flipping through the book in my local game store. I think I may have even posted "I may be off". As for the re-revised edition, you are the first person whom I've gotten that reaction from. Everyone at the store said, "Yeah, but do you want to wait 2 years to play the game?"

:rolleyes:
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
I don't know why you seem to always reply with snippy answers when someone doesn't love d20 as much as you seem to.

I don't see how I am necessarily any snippier than you are.

Everyone at the store said, "Yeah, but do you want to wait 2 years to play the game?"

Are you saying they agree that there will be a new edition? They can say anything they want; I don't think it's going to happen and I have no need to hold myself to the opinions of some people I don't know. This isn't a vote. And I trust my knowledge of the industry and how it operates over some people hanging out in some game shop. So unless someone in your game shop knows someone inside WotC: I'll beleive it when I see it.
 

It seems to me that people who call D&D's class/level system outdated are missing the point of D&D: Dungeons and Dragons has always been a game simulating heroic fantasy, where mighty warriors and powerful wizards do battle against evil creatures. These heroes tend to start out as average people, but over time they develop into almost superhuman heroes. D&D invented the class/level system, but more than that: D&D IS the class/level system: A D&D without the class/level system would be like Star Wars without lightsabers, Indiana Jones without the whip, or a James Bond movie without Bond girls.

In other words, D&D without the class/level system just wouldn't be D&D.

As for D&D being too combat-oriented: Hey, I'm perfectly happy slashing my way through a horde of orcs to get the treasure. If I wanted a game where combat was rare to never, I'd go play Werewolf or Vampire.
 

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