NPC Classes and CR

[Greenfield]

Any advice? I'm going "old school" on my party, and using an enemy force made up almost entirely of NPC class leveled characters.

NPC classes have hite dice a size smaller than their PC class counterparts, get no bonus feats, and have a slightly slower spell progression.

Any advice on how to match CRs?

For example, I'm looking at matching 2 CR4 Warriors to each level 5 or 6 PC fighter type. By the book that's a fair match. In practice, it's probably going to be PCs all the way.

If I wanted to make that more of a match, how do you think I should adjust the NPC levels.

 

[Gilladian]

NPCs are typically 1 CR lower than their level, right?

So to match CR, double the number. This is still usually too easy, because of the issues you mentioned. So personally, I either add in another "lot" of NPCs (ie start with 2, double for 4, then add 2 more for a total of 6), OR I increase them by a level. So if 4 3rd level NPCs would be an even CR by the rules, rather than going with six 3rd levels, I'll go with 4 4th levels.

Generally I find that it is "fairer" to increase levels on fighters, and increase numbers on spellcasters. This prevents the "oops" of giving them higher level spells than the PCs are "ready" to deal with.

Also, give them a fair amount of "one-shot" magic. Potions or scrolls that they actually USE before or during combat. Personally, I'm a mean DM. I list these items, and try to use them in combat, but then when the PCs search, any unused items are just not there for them to find.

 

[ThatGuyThere]

Personally, I'm a mean DM. I list these items, and try to use them in combat, but then when the PCs search, any unused items are just not there for them to find.

This is mean?

If you're using more than 1-2 NPCs per <level> against your PCs, it's practically essential under the wealth-by-level guidelines. Try running a fight against 3 or more NPCs at 10th level or more and <not> having equipment vanish. The PCs will then have to fight 4-5 single encounters without any treasure. There are only so many oozes, slimes, jellies, and monsterous beasts at 10th level - and even fewer than fit, say, in an enemy stronghold.

Vanishing equipment is the way to go. In fact, after explaining it to my players, they were like, "Well, that's ... an attack on our versimilitude, but on the other hand, fighting NPCs is more fun, so... yeah, we're in."

 

[Pergentile]

Make the NPC's interesting. There are so many monsters that can fit the bill of "x level fighter" that its sad. You have to make the NPC's seem like more then big dumb fighters to your players. Give one of the Casters a Mother Cyst, and make it slightly more powerful then the others. Have someone get a cyst, then have the caster delay a "Necrotic Burst" until (hopefully) after the battle ends.

"That was kind of easy, but I'm glad it's over... OH MY GOD MY ARM AAAARGH!!" *Almost dies*

 

[Celebrim]

The official discussion of CR with respect to leveled humanoids is all wrong.

Typically, CR = level if and only if the class is supported in the same way that it would be in a PC party, if the character has an elite stat array, if the character also is optimized for combat, and if the character also has gear approriate for its level. Any one of those things if missing typically means the CR is less than would be indicated by the rules.

I have a 6th level PC classed individual I just stated up that probably has a CR of 2. It's a support class, the character isn't optimized for combat, the character doesn't have an elite stat array, and doesn't have gear appropriate to its level. In no fashion is she even remotely CR 6, nor will I award XP for the class as if she were in the event of combat.

Generally speaking its much easier to miss making a PC classed humanoid have CR = level that it is to hit that target. Single individuals effectively lose a CR just by being alone since most PC classes have huge vunerabilities that are normally filled by working together in a team. Many PC classes/builds are balanced on the assumption that they are working to support other classes in combat and taking lead roles out of combat. Spellcasters generally meet CR if and only if it can be assumed that the spellcaster has had the oppurtunity to stack on the maximum number of buffs prior to combat. A spellcaster which is ambushed without a front line to defend himself is likely to be rolled in short order as the PC's simply converge and beat down. A fighter oppurating alone is simply going to lose out on the action economy, or is going to be met with tactics he's not optimized to counter (like melee build facing PC's that refuse to close and instead use ranged weapons) and much like the spellcaster is only going to live up to CR if he's had time to quaff potions of heroism and bull's strength just prior to entering combat.

In most published works I've read, to meet the CR = level target they encourage the DM to cheat by having like 20 buffs stacked up exactly when the PC's break down the door. In practice, as a DM you'll have a very very hard time predicting when the PC's will 'break down the door' in a reliable fashion. If you quaff potions and the like after an alarm is sounded, the PC's will at least 50% of the time break off the attack to rest or explore or return home. If you have NPC's cast a short duration buff in responce to hearing the PC's fiddling with the door to the NPC's lair, at least 50% of the time the PC's will find a reason to wait for 3 or 4 minutes before kicking the door down. And if the NPC is proactive and begins hunting down the PC's, he will generally lose the advantage of favorable terrain.

And that's PC classed individuals I'm discussing.

Generally speaking the real CR of an NPC classed invidual like 'Warrior' is about 1/2 its level. So a 20th level warrior is probably about CR 10 at most - assuming reasonably good gear, elite stat array and optimal selection of feats. A 4th level Warrior is probably about CR2 or CR3 in the case of very good gear and stats.

For a commoner, the CR is probably about 1/4 its level. A fourth level commoner, say a tough old farmer, is about CR 1 at best.

 

[NaturalFn20]

You're actually pretty lenient on your group.

A tough, but fair fight for my group is usually 4 CR levels above the group's level.

 

[Celebrim]

For example, I'm looking at matching 2 CR4 Warriors to each level 5 or 6 PC fighter type. By the book that's a fair match. In practice, it's probably going to be PCs all the way.

If I wanted to make that more of a match, how do you think I should adjust the NPC levels.

I notice that I failed to answer your question. I apologize.

Make it 2 level 4 fighters to each 6th level PC. This is going to be closer to 8 CR 3 combatants (assuming 4 PC's), which should present at least something of a challenge whereas the 2 level 4 warriors to each 6th level PC is closer to 8 CR 2 combatants and you are correct in assessing that it probably won't.

Alternately, make it 2 * n - 1 level 4 warriors + 1 level 5 or 6 PC classed support character such as a bard, wizard, or cleric. Arm the warriors with reach weapons and have the warriors concentrate on protecting their support/leader.

Alternately, give your level 4 warriors longbows, put them on the other side of a moat or other obstacle, and give them 90% cover.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, here's the design, just so people have info to work with.

PC party:
Barbarian2/Wizard3 (Working towards Rage Mage)
Fighter 4/Rogue1
Cleric3/Rogue2
Wizard4/Cleric1(working towards Mystic Thurge)
Rogue 5
Ranger 5

NPC challengers:
Adept 7
Warrior 7(battle leader w/ magical scimitars and two wpn fighting)
Warrior 4 (several using bows w/precise shot)
Rogue5/Assassin2

Adept, battle leader and Rogue will have magical gear and feats optimized for battle. The Adept will have Fires Within, so he'll be able to drop mini-fireballs all day long.

Line troops will have quality light armor and shields, masterworked weapons, strength bows, warhorses and mounted archery technique. (Yeah, I know, that's too many feats for their level. I'm doing it anyway.)

I'm matching the elites to the PCs 1 for 1, and the line troops two to one for who ever's left over. So three elites to three of the PCs, and 6 troops for the other 3 PCs.

If players fail to show (as occasionally happens) I'll cut line troops appropriately.

As you may have noticed, the party isn't exactly optimized either. No big-boom spells, other than a Lightning wand with 8 charges left in the hands of the Wizard/Cleric, and those are being hoarded.

So, any suggestions for adjusting the NPCs to make it a good fight?

 

[Celebrim]

So, any suggestions for adjusting the NPCs to make it a good fight?

Yes, not enough battle field control.

You've got plenty of raw power here to make it 'a good fight'. In fact, counting the warhorses you are probably more on the 'risking TPK' side of the spectrum than 'cake walk'. You've got a lot of foes here.

However, I'm not seeing a lot of tactical synergy on the part of the bad guys. The whole is less than the sum of the parts. Except for the fact that the bowmen have precise shot, there isn't much working together on the part of the bad guy team. Only the battle leader really wants to get up close and personal, and both he and the assassin are glass cannons. Everyone else on side B wants to stay off the front line, and while the war horses make the mooks much much harder to surround and kill off in the long run, they don't help the mooks support the front line troops very well. That mobility is going to waste if while the three elites are fighting especially if it results in reduced 'to hit' rolls compared to standing about 20' behind the front line and taking careful aim. The net result will be 6 PC against 3 low AC opponents, with the only added complication being a small amount of damage per turn coming from arrows flying in, then a longer period of cat and mouse with the mounted archers.

What prevents the battle leader, adept, or assassin from being overrun and being individually surrounded by the PC party so that they can concentrate force on them?

Presumably the Adept could have mirror image, which will help him, but mostly it will probably result in simply changing where he shows up in the target priority list and probably giving the archers one more round to take pop shots. Without mirror image, I'd expect the Adept to be immediately outflanked and his spells rendered useless. With mirror image I expect the adept to be mostly ignored in favor of everyone ganging up on the battle leader, before turning attention to the assassin (or vica verse depending on targets of oppurtunity).

That said, I wouldn't worry to much about optimizing the foes you have. It's already a huge fight and your PC's seem not to be power gaming, and the PC party is balanced but don't look like the sort that goes through monsters like hyperkinetic ginsu knives.

 

[Jhaelen]

As you may have noticed, the party isn't exactly optimized either. No big-boom spells, other than a Lightning wand with 8 charges left in the hands of the Wizard/Cleric, and those are being hoarded.

So, any suggestions for adjusting the NPCs to make it a good fight?

Yup, the party seems to be pretty suboptimal. Their EPL is 6, the encounter is slightly higher than 10, so it should be a tough fight. Since the PC casters look pretty pathetic, this might well turn into a TPK if you're playing the NPCs tactically. It will depend on your players' tactics, really.

Even if you don't, assuming the assassin starts the encounter in hiding, it's pretty much assured you'll kill at least a single pc.

The Assassin NPC will have a lot of cash to spend on items compared to the rest. Depending on what you spend it, that may turn out ot be too much for the PCs.