D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Reynard]

You'd think the core books for D&D would be designed for all people playing that game, not just a handbook for newbies and a bunch of invisible assumptions.

I personally think the "beginner friendly" aspect of the 2024 DMG is going to be a problem if they don't follow up with a "DMG 2" or whatever.

 

[Reynard]

Until you learn how to solve the problem.

No,literally, if the game doesn't give you guidelines, it fails. There can be no assumption that the user will go find answers in another game, nor any assumption they will put together spreadsheets to try and backward what you intended. RPGs are inherently open and DIY, and not providing tools to support that is just a failure.

D&D 5E 2024, by the measure, is one of the worst editions of the game. Its "how to create" sections are complete garbage.

 

[bedir than]

If the answer to a problem you're having with a game is, "make it up yourself, or use a source from someone else", that game is flawed (for you at least).

Or the game was designed, from day 1 with Gary, Dave and their groups to "make it up yourself" and not to be a strict dictionary or AP stylebook type of game

 

[Lanefan]

Since Michaelangelo had the ability to paint the Sistine Chapel, our universe must be inconsistent because other people don't have that ability now?

Since Michael Phelps had the ability to win 23 gold medals in the Olympics, our universe must be inconsistent because essentially all other people don't have that ability now?

Anyone can roll 1000 on 10d% when it comes to a skill or talent, and then be lucky again by ending up in an environment where that skill or talent can be realized. Michaelangelo and Michael Phelps did.

That doesn't deny that every other person ever born at least had the inherent chance of being able to achieve the same things. Who knows how many Michaelangelo-level talents there have been whose talents were never identified?

This idea that it is impossible for NPCs to have access to things PCs don't is frankly ridiculous. That is only true if we presume that the NPC got to that ability through basic, ordinary actions and training in a short, accessible period of time without depending on rare resources, insular group access, or individual fluke circumstances. Any one of these assumptions would be flawed in D&D-alike fantasy worlds. To depend on all of them collectively is a near guaranteed failure.

As long as there's a somewhat-visible avenue for a PC to have done the same things, maybe instead of becoming an adventurer, all is good.

This elf spent years consuming iocane powder er...rare arcanite crystals, which are addictive and harmful, but allow more powerful incantations. This elf underwent incredibly rigorous training that requires 24-hour meditations for multiple days at a time, which humans naturally struggle with. This elf spent three human lifetimes perfecting a spell. This elf was trained by the insular and xenophobic League of Supreme Elf Recondites (a real LoSER. It sounds better in elvish.) This elf was experimented on by her previous master, the only one of 25 apprentices to survive the experiments. This elf personally developed a new spell after decades of experiments, which no one else has figured out yet. Etc., etc., etc.

And again, as long as my PC Elf could have done the same instead of becoming a Cleric to Corellon, we're good.

That said, the Elf who spent three human lifetimes perfecting a spell would IMO have had to first be trained as a levelled spellcaster, as it's reasonable to expect that researching a new spell would require prior knowledge of how to cast other spells of at least the same relative degree of power.

Things accessible to PCs have limits, because of what PCs are and how their lives have been up to the point play begins. NPCs have fewer limits because they aren't adventurers, they can be nearly anything.

I think most of this discussion, however, is around adventurer-like NPCs and their design, as that's what's likely to be met as foes in the field.

If a Human NPC is hard-casting Flamestrike at you, should it be reasonable to assume that NPC is a Cleric of at least 9th level? IMO the answer is 100% yes.

When designing an NPC adventuring party as foes or competition for the PCs, should the characters in that enemy party follow PC build rules? Bloody right they should!

And so on.

 

[el-remmen]

What product is that?

I’m away from home. But if I get a chance tonight I’ll check my PDF folder

 

[Cadence]

<not needed>

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or the game was designed, from day 1 with Gary, Dave and their groups to "make it up yourself" and not to be a strict dictionary or AP stylebook type of game

Intentional and explicit DIY is an exception, yes.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I completely agree. There has not been a system that used CR that was actually effective at achieving what CR claimed to achieve. But it is nice to have someone else agree to that.

I agree with this as well. I've said many times that CR is a joke.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Since Michaelangelo had the ability to paint the Sistine Chapel, our universe must be inconsistent because other people don't have that ability now?

Since Michael Phelps had the ability to win 23 gold medals in the Olympics, our universe must be inconsistent because essentially all other people don't have that ability now?

Since Marie Curie, Linus Pauling, John Bardeen, and Fredrick Sanger have won multiple Nobel Prizes, our universe must be inconsistent because essentially all other people don't have that ability now?

This idea that it is impossible for NPCs to have access to things PCs don't is frankly ridiculous. That is only true if we presume that the NPC got to that ability through basic, ordinary actions and training in a short, accessible period of time without depending on rare resources, insular group access, or individual fluke circumstances. Any one of these assumptions would be flawed in D&D-alike fantasy worlds. To depend on all of them collectively is a near guaranteed failure.

This elf spent years consuming iocane powder er...rare arcanite crystals, which are addictive and harmful, but allow more powerful incantations. This elf underwent incredibly rigorous training that requires 24-hour meditations for multiple days at a time, which humans naturally struggle with. This elf spent three human lifetimes perfecting a spell. This elf was trained by the insular and xenophobic League of Supreme Elf Recondites (a real LoSER. It sounds better in elvish.) This elf was experimented on by her previous master, the only one of 25 apprentices to survive the experiments. This elf personally developed a new spell after decades of experiments, which no one else has figured out yet. Etc., etc., etc.

Things accessible to PCs have limits, because of what PCs are and how their lives have been up to the point play begins. NPCs have fewer limits because they aren't adventurers, they can be nearly anything.

There is no reason one could not make these exceptional people as characters. Also, if someone is exceptional and rare, I would imagine it is the PCs, rather than the CR 2 Mage Apprentice with their Arcane Burst. Like c'mon, it is a basic enemy that often appears in large numbers. They are not all some super special hundreds of years old magic powder snorting elves!

If Vecna has special powers PCs cannot have is one thing, but if every common stock enemy has such it is just ridiculous. This is especially egregious with arcane magic, as we literally have a class in the game whose job entails learning spells from other people. If every NPC wizards casts Arcane Bursts, what is the justification for a PC wizard not being able to learn it?

 

[TiQuinn]

If Vecna has special powers PCs cannot have is one thing, but if every common stock enemy has such it is just ridiculous. This is especially egregious with arcane magic, as we literally have a class in the game whose job entails learning spells from other people. If every NPC wizards casts Arcane Bursts, what is the justification for a PC wizard not being able to learn it?

For me, it’s more of a problem that a PC can’t counterspell it. I can wrap my head around the idea that it’s simply a different “spell” that PCs aren’t meant to have, but if it also doesn’t obey the same rules that govern arcane magic, then it feels too illogical to me. Too gamified.