D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Thommy H-H]

Certainly, special NPCs should deviate, and PCs should not be guaranteed to be able to duplicate all unique powers.

But (for me) the "problem" arises when a theoretically "generic" NPC (and not just one but nearly ALL the generics) do things that makes the PC go "why cant I do that?"

BL: Unique wizards with special powers, no problem. All wizards, even low level novice examples of apprentices and such having unique abilities, no good no good.

BBL: where is my generic 2nd level equivalent mage apprentice stat block?

This may be a play/setting style thing, but aren't all NPCs technically 'unique'? There isn't a factory churning out wizards or fighters that all have the same basic abilities. I don't think that's what character classes represent. I mean, maybe they do in your settings, but it isn't the default. Characters don't know they have classes and levels: these are just mechanics that represent their growth as adventurers.

Likewise, the Warrior Veteran (Medium, LN) that is in charge of the town guard doesn't know she uses the same stat block as the mercenary the party fought three sessions ago, and there's no particular reason for the players to know that either. One Mage is a cult leader, another is a fusty old academic. One represents a Wizard, another an Artificer.

The stat blocks are generic to encourage you to represent the NPCs the party encounters as unique individuals: they don't imply anything about the nature of people in the world they inhabit. Lower and middle class people in ordinary professions don't inherently have 4 Hit Points and a weird insistence on using clubs to defend themselves in the worlds of D&D; that's just a mechanical abstraction to help you out if a messenger needs escorting through bandit-infested woods or something. Every NPC my players meet has their own reasons for having the abilities they do, which a standard action like "Arcane Burst" facilitates. Maybe it's a version of Magic Missile, maybe it's Eldritch Blast, maybe it's a Bard twanging a lute or an Artificer shooting a magitech pistol. The players don't know or care, in my experience.

 

[SkidAce]

This may be a play/setting style thing, but aren't all NPCs technically 'unique'? There isn't a factory churning out wizards or fighters that all have the same basic abilities. I don't think that's what character classes represent. I mean, maybe they do in your settings, but it isn't the default. Characters don't know they have classes and levels: these are just mechanics that represent their growth as adventurers.

Likewise, the Warrior Veteran (Medium, LN) that is in charge of the town guard doesn't know she uses the same stat block as the mercenary the party fought three sessions ago, and there's no particular reason for the players to know that either. One Mage is a cult leader, another is a fusty old academic. One represents a Wizard, another an Artificer.

The stat blocks are generic to encourage you to represent the NPCs the party encounters as unique individuals: they don't imply anything about the nature of people in the world they inhabit. Lower and middle class people in ordinary professions don't inherently have 4 Hit Points and a weird insistence on using clubs to defend themselves in the worlds of D&D; that's just a mechanical abstraction to help you out if a messenger needs escorting through bandit-infested woods or something. Every NPC my players meet has their own reasons for having the abilities they do, which a standard action like "Arcane Blast" facilitates. Maybe it's a version of Magic Missile, maybe it's Eldritch Blast, maybe it's a Bard twanging a lute or an Artificer shooting a magitech pistol. The players don't know or care, in my experience.

Agreed with 99% of your thesis. Well said.

its just that it seems ALL (especially casters) are unique. Creating an occasional dissonance for my players.

I could provide an actual convo that shows how it goes down, but i will just do what ive already done...when PCs encounter a generic caster, i will modify the stat block.

I have enjoyed this conversation and evero es inputs. I feel we are all closer together in concept than we realize.

 

[bloodtide]

Fair enough for you, but I'm not willing to write off any inconsistency as a "game convention" that should be ignored for play. There's no reason that anything an NPC can accomplish can't be duplicated by an equivalent PC under similar circumstances. I simply don't want to play a game where that isn't true, so I don't. As much as possible for practical purposes, I want the rules to reflect the in-fiction reality of the world and everything in it. I strive for that goal in every world I make and every game I play.

But why?

You do accept 100% "Monsters" can do lots of things PCs can never, ever do. But when it's NPC, they must follow the PC rules? Why? The PC rules are for Players.

What is the point of the "theoretical"? Like NPC Bob is a Servant of the Dark One.....so if a player is will to do the exact build they can "copy Bob". But as Bob is made to be an evil bad guy...not an adventurer the player might find the character very lacking in day to day play.

 

[Thommy H-H]

I could provide an actual convo that shows how it goes down, but i will just do what ive already done...when PCs encounter a generic caster, i will modify the stat block.

Yes, and having said all I just said, for my own satisfaction (and because I love tinkering with stat blocks!) I also often create mechanically distinct versions of generic NPCs for my games. I just know that isn't everyone's thing, and my read of the MM (with all its little tables for customising creatures) is that they expect most DMs to see stat blocks as mere mechanical scaffolding. The DMG does go some way to giving 'permission' to tweak purely aesthetic aspects of stat blocks (like switching damage types) but maybe some specific suggestions would be more helpful - like a Mage stat block that lets you change the spellcasting ability or the damage Arcane Burst inflicts to represent Bards, Warlocks, etc.

 

[Chaltab]

In some systems High difficulty means it could kill off the entire party.

As it does here. It says "One or more" party members.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This is where I would usually tell my players that the three core D&D rulebooks are not the end-all-and-be-all representation of any world's reality.

The spells and magic in the PHB are not the only magic that exists in the "world" or "setting". How do we know? Because if it was... no spells that got released in some future WotC product would ever be able to be used. One can't make the claim that the magic of the PHB is the only thing that exists and then throw in new magic from a future splatbook as though it's "always been there" if that claim is to be considered true. Thus... the only logical thing we can say is that the PHB gives us a representation of some of the magic of the world in a very specific game format... such that the players can play the game of Dungeons & Dragons. The spells are a game tool. Nothing more. And most definitely not a representation of exactly what exists. Which is why some people in the game world will have magic different than what the PCs have.

So that wizard NPC from the MM that has a magical "spell" different than what the PCs have? Well, it's a game convention. Nothing more. At some point WotC or the DM might decide to make it an actual spell that the players can select... but no guarantees. And the players just have to accept it. Otherwise they can kiss every subsequent splatbook option in the future goodbye.

Ok. So the PCs defeat this enemy wizard with this unique spell. The wizard of the party takes the enemy wizard's spellbook and wants to copy this unique spell to their own spellbook. Can they, and if not, why? Same thing if they just befriend a NPC wizard and ask to copy the spell.

 

[pawsplay]

I disagree. Because I do not think in this day and age we can assume new players are that stupid.

Whoa there. I didn't call anyone stupid, and I think it's very uncharitable to say something like that about people who are just starting out. A new player's ignorance is profound. Some people pick things up and find them obvious, other things may not be as obvious to as many people. I think it's fair, and realistic, to assume people only know what's on the page.

The stat blocks are generic to encourage you to represent the NPCs the party encounters as unique individuals: they don't imply anything about the nature of people in the world they inhabit.

I'm going to disagree with that. If the Knight in the MM does Radiant damage with their weapon, I think that implies that foes called "knights" not uncommonly have access to some source of magical Radiant damage. Maybe they're junior varsity paladins, maybe that's just a temporarily blessing they have for the purpose of this battle, but something is definitely going on there. Does the Warrior Veteran shoot a heavy crossbow twice in a round? Well, clearly, experienced warriors can get off more than one bolt in a few seconds. The Spy can stab people a lot with poisoned weapons? Well, I guess combat poison is a thing.

If an NPC who is not legendary or unique can do something, and at a modest level of experience, I think it's fair to ask what kind of PC can do the same thing. Maybe it's simpler if the mage apprentice isn't juggling Fire Bolt and Chilling Touch and Magic Missile during battle, but it does imply something about the nature of the world they inhabit if they can endlessly churn out formidable Force damage, all day, at a range or in melee, with some kind of speed or power that can't be countered by other spellcasters.

Just another strand to this conversation: when I first got into 5E, I was under the impression that "monster" NPCs were for nameless thugs and combat-oriented lieutenants, and the occasional "boss fight" with an NPC who was individually tougher and more versatile than a PC of that level could hope to be, with unique capabilities. I thought fleshed-out NPCs would generally have something more like a PC stat block. I maintained that impression until several published adventures later, I noticed the NPCs never had PC-like stat blocks. "Hm," I said, hming to myself. I mostly used monster stat blocks in my games, but early on, I did have some NPC companions with PC stats. But somewhere along the way, it was decided NPC companions should have much simpler abilities, and double hit points.

5E characters are generally much simpler than 3e or 4e, so I don't see any reason 5E revised absolutely has to be the way it is. I think they could have used some page count to explain how to quickly generate a PC-type stat block with certain simplifications, and given an idea of what CR that would represent. I don't think NPC fighters have to be big blobs of hit points that make two attacks per round. Nor do I think it's helpful to new DMs to make them wildly improvise if a NPC changes out their gear. Like, if you hand a +1 longbow to a Warrior Veteran, they should be able to use that. But they don't do standard damage, and if you treat them like a PC but with no class abilities, it's probably a downgrade in capabilities.

 

[el-remmen]

For AD&D, that would totally work. I just don't see how that would work in 5e. What are you improvising it based on? There's no Level 6 Wizard in the MM, and as noted above, the capabilities of PCs are quite different than NPCs in 5e.

I don't know what to say. It works fine for me. I am basing it on what a 6th level wizard would have. I might note something like Yalp Waps Evkr6/LN, so I know what kind of spells to give him and if he had any special powers worth noting. (For example, if I made an NPC diviner I’d give him the portent power.

I was very active on the Paizo forums for the decade or so I played Pathfinder. What I saw a lot of was players wanting to tell their DM they had got it wrong. “That monster can’t have passed that save because they only get X Fort save modifier, and they can’t have the feat that boosts Fort saves by +2 because they already used their feat for Y ability. “

I guess I’m glad that I have never played with anyone like that and if that became a regular thing I’d have to suggest that we don’t have compatible play styles. But I did a lot of adapting/homebrewing/grandfathering when running 3e and never had even the most rules-familiar player challenge me what an NPC or monster could do.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

This bothers me. I like to think of myself as a creative fellow, and “just reskin this stat block” frustrates me. Yes, it works - but I like to be able to have more uniqueness than similarities in the things I run. Sure, I might be able to use a basilisk as a “young” Medusa via a reskin, but I’d rather have something unique unto itself and for the rules to encourage and reward doing so. Same for NPCs.

But you aren’t reskinning anything. You’re modifying the stat block for your unique NPC Mage (or whatever) if you don’t like it “as is” from the MM. We’re not using a basilisk stat block to represent a completely different monster. We’re saying Wally the Wizard NPC has the stats of the Mage in the MM - a statblock intended for NPCs - with a few minor tweaks.

As an aside, I find that the personality, background, and related motivations of an NPC are the things that largely make an NPC unique. Statblock variations are a distant second, IMO, especially since the players may never even experience or notice (or care about) those variations.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But why?

You do accept 100% "Monsters" can do lots of things PCs can never, ever do. But when it's NPC, they must follow the PC rules? Why? The PC rules are for Players.

What is the point of the "theoretical"? Like NPC Bob is a Servant of the Dark One.....so if a player is will to do the exact build they can "copy Bob". But as Bob is made to be an evil bad guy...not an adventurer the player might find the character very lacking in day to day play.

If you choose to engage with the hobby as a game primarily, that's fine. To me, that simply isn't enough to hold my interest. I want a reasonably consistent setting that feels like a place that could exist for my players to explore and interact with through their PCs. That's what fun about the hobby for me.

That's all the "why" I can give you.