D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Micah Sweet]

As is so often the case: a problem being solved in 3PP is not actually solved. I get why you suggest it. I'm not really in a position to benefit from that. Particularly in this glorious age of "DM Empowerment".

How is a problem being solved in 3pp not count as being solved? Who cares what WotC does if there's a fix elsewhere?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

How is a problem being solved in 3pp not count as being solved? Who cares what WotC does if there's a fix elsewhere?

Who cares there's a fix somewhere when 3/4 of GMs don't know it's there, 3/4 of those who do will refuse to ever even consider using it, and 3/4 of those who might consider using it have other things they want to focus on instead?

The vast majority of third party products functionally don't exist for most players. The official game and the GM's one favorite product are all most of us ever see.

I would take this even slightly seriously if I had ever seen even one GM accept using a third party product that he or she had not personally brought and declared was going to be used. I have never seen that happen. Ergo, unless your 3PP solution is something most GMs are bringing to the table themselves, it functionally doesn't exist.

 

[FarBeyondC]

Who cares there's a fix somewhere when 3/4 of GMs don't know it's there, 3/4 of those who do will refuse to ever even consider using it, and 3/4 of those who might consider using it have other things they want to focus on instead?

The vast majority of third party products functionally don't exist for most players.

The vast majority of the actual first party books (core and otherwise) functionally don't exist for most players (and DMs) given how few people actually read them, so it's really hard to be sympathetic here.

 

[cranberry]

I agree with those that said you should create the NPCs you want and not worry about balance. If the PC's choose to attack an NPC that's more powerful than them, it can be a ...teaching moment.

I have a "Bab Yaga" type NPC posing as the friendly neighborhood Alchemist in Otari. (She'll be part of their story later on)..but I look forward to one of the players borrowing a potion when they don't think she's watching.

 

[cranberry]

Thought of something after I posted above.

Keep in mind that the NPC in question doesn't have to kill the players if they are attacked by the PC's. The NPC could just knock them out, trap them in a force cage, call on the town guards, etc.

 

[Reynard]

Also you can more or less just use the rules from those games. It's close enough.

That's not the point.

 

[Reynard]

Who cares there's a fix somewhere when 3/4 of GMs don't know it's there, 3/4 of those who do will refuse to ever even consider using it, and 3/4 of those who might consider using it have other things they want to focus on instead?

The vast majority of third party products functionally don't exist for most players. The official game and the GM's one favorite product are all most of us ever see.

I would take this even slightly seriously if I had ever seen even one GM accept using a third party product that he or she had not personally brought and declared was going to be used. I have never seen that happen. Ergo, unless your 3PP solution is something most GMs are bringing to the table themselves, it functionally doesn't exist.

I don't understand this complaint with regards to the subject at hand. We are specifically talking about a GM facing tool.

 

[cbwjm]

I oscillate between preferring NPCs (as in other humanoid wizards, fighters, paladins, etc) to be built like PCs and to be built like monsters. With all of the abilities, building them like a monster and not worrying too much about class level is definitely much easier, but I prefer that some abilities do act like PC abilities. I want spellcasters to have spell slots, even if you only put in 1 spell per spell level, and I want damage to match what the players can do. I don't know how many players and DMs have an issue with the current monsters in 5.5, but if a significant number are taking the abilities and altering them, or outright creating something new, I think that's a little sad for the developers who clearly took things a little bit too far in their streamlining.

 

[bloodtide]

Worrying about balance is overrated.

Very much so. Even the game writers will admit the "break the rules" to make things like NPC stat blocks if they want a set character.

In particular, if the NPC is depicting a similar sort of being to a PC, they don't have access to any ability I wouldn't allow a PC under similar circumstances to have. Thus, an NPC wizard who is supposed to be around a particular level wouldn't have spells a PC wizard of the same level couldn't possibly have, and vice versa.

In general, most NPC should have abilites and powers and spells the PCs don't and can't have. A lot of this is just simple character bulids: A 10th level Cleric of the Dark God will have abiltes, powers and spells the PCs don't have, simply because the Pcs have other classes. Though, sure, in theory, a player could take thoes classes.

The rest should be thing the PCs can never ever get. Things a player could never pick or take in most games. NPC and PCs are not the same.

As the vast majority of NPC will not live long, they don't really need to be balanced. They need to be good at whatever their role in the game play is, as needed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Who cares there's a fix somewhere when 3/4 of GMs don't know it's there, 3/4 of those who do will refuse to ever even consider using it, and 3/4 of those who might consider using it have other things they want to focus on instead?

The vast majority of third party products functionally don't exist for most players. The official game and the GM's one favorite product are all most of us ever see.

I would take this even slightly seriously if I had ever seen even one GM accept using a third party product that he or she had not personally brought and declared was going to be used. I have never seen that happen. Ergo, unless your 3PP solution is something most GMs are bringing to the table themselves, it functionally doesn't exist.

I disagree. I've had players hand me player-facing 3pp stuff, and ended up using it. But in any case my compilation document is pretty exhaustive, takes material from dozens of 3pp sources, and covers just about everything I could think that I wanted in 5e, so there's a lot of choice there.

Honestly, I think you just seem to have had a largely miserable experience in the hobby, and that's awful, but it doesn't mean that it's like that for everyone.