D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[EzekielRaiden]

You can have a detailed system of monster creation and still have some CR failures in edge cases.

If 5e only had CR failures on edge cases, I would completely agree.

That has not been my experience with it.

 

[AlViking]

I mean, I had thought it was obvious that WotC did not have that. CR is only very slightly less of a joke now than it was in 3e, and that can be placed entirely at the feet of the overall reduction in the power of spells and the inclusion of Concentration.

CR works reasonably well for me as long as I take a look at the party and think about party strengths and weaknesses. No two parties are the same, nor are any two DMs so a generic system is always going to take a bit of trial and error to get right. I'd say using the guidelines gets it close probably 90% of the time for me, it's not a joke. You just need to learn how to use it, which is something that really only comes with experience.

 

[Reynard]

If 5e only had CR failures on edge cases, I would completely agree.

That has not been my experience with it.

Sure. But A5E and ToV both did a pretty good job of back working a system in, and Alphastream put together a solid set of trends that is useful for design based on the 2024 MM. WotC could have done it if they wanted to.

 

[sevenbastard]

The problem.here goes well beyond NPCs. The lack of detailed mobster creation rules

Gangbusters is available as POD on Drivethrurpg..

 

[Chaltab]

Sure. But A5E and ToV both did a pretty good job of back working a system in, and Alphastream put together a solid set of trends that is useful for design based on the 2024 MM. WotC could have done it if they wanted to.

Also you can more or less just use the rules from those games. It's close enough.

 

[ECMO3]

5e already leaned into a distinction between PC stat blocks and NPCs. The 2024 revision has deepened this divide; whereas giving monsters PC levels was before only discouraged, now it is not even contemplated. Essentially, now, every NPC is a monster, and the GM's guide helpfully refers you to the section on customizing monsters if you want to alter one of the NPC stat blocks. That's great, I can say this Veteran has an axe instead of a sword, and maybe I'll even change out one of the Mage's spells or turn its eldritch burst into Cold damage or something.

A notable weakness of the new rules, compared to prior editions, is that I can't simply whip up a Mage or Rogue equivalent for any given CR. Do you want an NPC Ranger? Good luck, there is no such thing at all. There's also not a single stat block that looks like it might be a Warlock. And as of the new DMG, there aren't even any guidelines to painfully reverse engineer new NPC types.

There are a ton of third party NPC books to fill this void, but since there aren't any guidelines in the new rules, I have a lot of doubt about the balance and style of those writeups. What do you think? Do you ever find yourself hunting around for a CR 8 Mage with Warlock spells?

PCs are much more complicated than Monsters and it would be extremely time consuming to build out NPCs with a full blown PC class, including ability scores, feats, features, subclass features, spells etc. It would be on the order of an hour for each NPC.

It is far easier to just build an NPC from scratch without a template. Want an NPC with sneak attack .... give him sneak attack. Want the NPC to also have Divine Smite ... give her divine smite with an appropriate number of uses a day. This approach is far easier than building a Rogue or Paladin, let alone a multi-class Rogue/Paladin and accomplishes the same thing.

Edit: Ever notice NPCs can fire a crossbow more than once a turn without the crossbow expert feat and some of them do way more damage (ex Knight does 2d10+1d8 per attack and attacks twice)? Some of the players in one of my games really did not like that.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Sure. But A5E and ToV both did a pretty good job of back working a system in, and Alphastream put together a solid set of trends that is useful for design based on the 2024 MM. WotC could have done it if they wanted to.

As is so often the case: a problem being solved in 3PP is not actually solved. I get why you suggest it. I'm not really in a position to benefit from that. Particularly in this glorious age of "DM Empowerment".

 

[pukunui]

PCs are much more complicated than Monsters and it would be extremely time consuming to build out NPCs with a full blown PC class, including ability scores, feats, features, subclass features, spells etc. It would be on the order of an hour for each NPC.

It is far easier to just build an NPC from scratch without a template. Want an NPC with sneak attack .... give him sneak attack. Want the NPC to also have Divine Smite ... give her divine smite with an appropriate number of uses a day. This approach is far easier than building a Rogue or Paladin, let alone a multi-class Rogue/Paladin and accomplishes the same thing.

Edit: Ever notice NPCs can fire a crossbow more than once a turn without the crossbow expert feat?

I agree for the most part. Where it breaks down for me is the new spellcaster design. Not giving them spell slots is one thing, but the overly versatile Arcane Blasts that they all get, that are both melee and ranged attacks, which they can fire off multiple times in a round … sure it gives them damage parity with PCs but it leaves the players wondering why they can’t do that too.

 

[jasper]

....

Edit: Ever notice NPCs can fire a crossbow more than once a turn without the crossbow expert feat and some of them do way more damage (ex Knight does 2d10+1d8 per attack and attacks twice)? Some of the players in one of my games really did not like that.

We monsters and NPC cheat. It is what we do. You are not allowed to cheat. Because you are player.
Non pLAYer Cheater. See it is in the definition.

 

[ECMO3]

I agree for the most part. Where it breaks down for me is the new spellcaster design. Not giving them spell slots is one thing, but the overly versatile Arcane Blasts that they all get, that are both melee and ranged attacks, which they can fire off multiple times in a round … sure it gives them damage parity with PCs but it leaves the players wondering why they can’t do that too.

You can give them spell slots or arcane blasts or both or whatever you want.

Like I said in my earlier post the Knight 2 heavy crossbow attacks doing 2d10+1d8 each are what my PCs are upset about in this fashion.

If this is going to be a problem at your table then make your abilities/powers/spells look more like real PCs. You don't need to give your casters "arcane blasts" if you don't want to. Gove them a different cantrip or whatever but giving them Wizard levels is not really a good answer IMO. If a Wizard has what you want take those parts and leave the rest.