D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Minigiant]

Too squishy or wimpy for what? Who cares about CR, it is meaningless nonsense anyway, and as monster creation rules do not even exist in 5.5. there are no benchmarks to meet. Just represent the creature consistently.

Too squishy or wimpy for fun use.

I already explained it.

PCs on the monster side punch way WAY higher than their defense. They aren't fun to use because they are not even glass cannons, they are paper cannons.

PCs deal a bunch of damage then instantly die

NPCs modeled after PCs are more like one shot traps like bear traps and falling rocks than monsters you fight. Because they either kill you then die or just die

 

[Blue]

No.

Can you expand on that rules are not supposed to support the feel of the universe you want to run?

 

[Blue]

I don't expect PCs and NPCs to all have identical abilities, but I do expect PC classes to have some reflection in the game world. Like, if a PC is a Cleric of Sune, then I expect there to be NPC clerics of Sune, and whatever differences in their abilities exist should have some kind of explanation.

Okay, as long as it's within the precincts that WotC has already laid out that classes are not in-world constructs, so different Clerics of Sune are A-OK to have related but different powers.

This started with the only NPC named the same as a class in the MM, the Druid, which has 4th level casting and no wildshape, and has continued since.

 

[Lanefan]

If you don't use something like CR how would you be able to tell at a glance how powerful a goblin is versus a tarrasque?

By looking at and comparing the actual numbers in the statblock, along with the various extra abilities.

They can, but it also makes them more difficult to run when the DM already has to keep track of a dozen monsters. As the DMG says, the rules do not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D. As far as I'm concerned they also don't 100% describe any character or monster, the rules are a simplification done to provide a fun gaming experience. I'm a fan of a game being a loose simulation of the fantasy world but I also accept that I don't want every gritty detail modeled in depth.

If I'm running an NPC as a foe for the party I want and need to know what it can do, what it can't do, and what its numbers are; and the more detail I have on such things, the better.

What's it's class and level? Just knowing those tells me a lot about what it has going for it.

What languages does it speak? Is it likely to understand the party's shouted communications with each other during the fight? Never mind it's hard to monologue effectively if nobody in the party can understand me.

What spells does it have prepared? Also, what other spells does it have in its book? Inquiring minds are going to want to know.

And so on.

 

[Lanefan]

Too squishy or wimpy for fun use.

I already explained it.

PCs on the monster side punch way WAY higher than their defense. They aren't fun to use because they are not even glass cannons, they are paper cannons.

PCs deal a bunch of damage then instantly die

NPCs modeled after PCs are more like one shot traps like bear traps and falling rocks than monsters you fight. Because they either kill you then die or just die

Given that a common complaint I hear is that 5e combats tend to go on too long, this all sounds like a solution rather than a problem.

That said, I've run PC party vs NPC party battles in the past (though not in 5e) and my experience is that those tend to be the longest combats of all.

 

[TwoSix]

Can you expand on that rules are not supposed to support the feel of the universe you want to run?

No.

 

[AlViking]

By looking at and comparing the actual numbers in the statblock, along with the various extra abilities.

Which is step 2, but is missing step 1 - easy and simple at a glance.

If I'm running an NPC as a foe for the party I want and need to know what it can do, what it can't do, and what its numbers are; and the more detail I have on such things, the better.

What's it's class and level? Just knowing those tells me a lot about what it has going for it.

What languages does it speak? Is it likely to understand the party's shouted communications with each other during the fight? Never mind it's hard to monologue effectively if nobody in the party can understand me.

What spells does it have prepared? Also, what other spells does it have in its book? Inquiring minds are going to want to know.

And so on.

I stat out details now and then for important NPCs or more likely swap thing around like what spells they have prepped or add some other details. But most NPCs? Most NPCs only have 15 minutes of fame if that and I'm lazy. If they're a recurring NPC I'll just give them things I think are appropriate based on NPCs or character abilities of a similar level.

 

[Distracted DM]

Too squishy or wimpy for fun use.

I already explained it.

PCs on the monster side punch way WAY higher than their defense. They aren't fun to use because they are not even glass cannons, they are paper cannons.

PCs deal a bunch of damage then instantly die

NPCs modeled after PCs are more like one shot traps like bear traps and falling rocks than monsters you fight. Because they either kill you then die or just die

Appreciate your explanation- I've found this to be the case as well.

 

[Minigiant]

Given that a common complaint I hear is that 5e combats tend to go on too long, this all sounds like a solution rather than a problem.

It might look that way. But PCs are too skewed.

Basically, if a PC can survive the targeted offence of a party of four, it's offense is so high it's gonna TPK them.

Basically you'd have to blatantly and obviously pull punches to run a PC against a PC party who'd have enough defenses to last over a round. Which defeats the purpose of having NPCs using PC rules because you'd have to ignore their class features to have any fun*.

*Unless rocket tag is your desired type of fun

 

[Micah Sweet]

Too squishy or wimpy for fun use.

I already explained it.

PCs on the monster side punch way WAY higher than their defense. They aren't fun to use because they are not even glass cannons, they are paper cannons.

PCs deal a bunch of damage then instantly die

NPCs modeled after PCs are more like one shot traps like bear traps and falling rocks than monsters you fight. Because they either kill you then die or just die

Perhaps the NPCs should play smarter. Like show up in, say, a party.