Nuclear weapons of D&D Rules

[Jarrod]

There is a split between "too complicated to use" and "OMG!". The too complicated to use people have mentioned... grapple, turning, and the like. They're not unbalanced, just not likely to be used because they're a pain.

As for good 'ol Mordy's Disjunction... we've kept it as is. My abjuration-focused mage has spent a ridiculous amount of money on defensive items, and is waiting eagerly for a monster to actually cast one. Given that we're at the end of the campaign, doesn't look like it'll happen... but that's because we beat the nasty mage on initiative last week

I'm a big fan of the players talking over things with the DM. My DM took a look at a couple of custom items (combinations, mostly) that I proposed and said "What the hell?". I told him they were anti-Disjunction prep, and his response was "Cool, that means I get to toss one out!". It's all about the communication.

... says the mage who _wants_ a disjunction. Please, mommy, can I have one for my birthday?

 

[Toras]

Used Grapple twice playing the fighter [DM had to come up with Strength Check Mechanic to deal with the idea of using a pin to shatter a casters wrists. (had 2 size classes and +15 strength on him)]

Sunder was used as a monk (fighting unarmed, kicking a sword down to the nub)

Turning is used often.

Mord's Disjunction was used so often on my fighter (was a holy warrior build so had a high enough will save to save most of his stuff usually) that it became a running joke. Bastards would pop out of the wood work and snipe him with it.

Party Archmage had counterspell feats, and would bounce them back. Eventually he got tired of that and designed a buffer spell (much like the FR Spell Resist disk spell). We escalated, and triumphed. But fighter still has a blood oath of vengance against Mordy.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mord's Disjunction was used so often on my fighter (was a holy warrior build so had a high enough will save to save most of his stuff usually) that it became a running joke. Bastards would pop out of the wood work and snipe him with it.

Which reminds me of one of the things I liked most about 1Ed AD&D and AU/AE: Spell Rarity.
Having a spell like Mord's being universally available can become a crutch for player and DM alike.

In 1Ed (RAW), your intitial spell list was prepped with your DM, you didn't just pick any old spells to put in your book. Learning new spells required that you actually find them- a powerful spell might require a quest to find.

In AU/AE, the "better" spells are Complex, Exotic or Unique, and as such, are not available to every caster.

 

[MerricB]

I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to reduce some of the size bonuses to grapple. And then maybe add in some racial bonuses for certain creatures - things with tentacles or constrictor snakes for example.

From painful experience, the size modifiers for grapple are just too wonky. Get rid of them, and everyone will be much happier. A bigger creature gets a better strength... so why do we need to have things happen twice?

Cheers!

 

[smetzger]

just to chime in , you cant grapple two or more size bigger than you and succeed.
you can break one, but not win one (medium vs. huge no can do)

enlarge is the grapplers friend.

 

[egomann]

I recently used Disjunction on my PC's. They lost all of their bags of holding, and about 80% of the magic they had on them. It seriously reduced the power of the party, but it was a perfectly legitimate tactic used by the Lich Queen they attacked. They have since gotten over it, and now have fewer magic items, but the ones they have are better.

They needed to be powered down anyway. It was getting way to hard to challenge them without insta-kills.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Mordenkainen's Disjunctrion: I love this spell. Our other DM uses it a lot too. It isn't really all that uber by they way. Bear in mind that attended items get the wearer's save. In practice, by the time PCs run into anyone who can cast it, they should have decent saves. Some items will be lost but not that many in practice. The spell is less dangerous than a save or die because it isnt all that crippling. Its most powerful function is to auto remove an enemy's buff spells. Hell, my high level NPCs use this spell in traps.

My main problem with disjunction is that it's the "**** the fighter!" spell. The fighter is extremely reliant on his items at high level. He also has a weak Will save. Taken together, these factors are crippling. A high-level wizard or cleric whacked with disjunction can still blow you up with spells the next action, and has the Will saves to deal with the possible damage to his items. The fighter hit with this save is unlikely to be able to fly (a key component of high-level combat) and will almost certainly lose one or more essential items.

IMHO, this spell is WORSE than save-or-dies because while true resurrection can handle death, no spell short of wish or miracle can deal with lost magic.

 

[Chimera]

Druids have a great big nuclear weapon: Animal companion + Summon Nature's Ally + Animal Growth. Watch as the amazing druid first grinds the game to a halt as he figures out the stats for all his creatures, then the huge tiger and three large leopards charge and pounce and bite and claw and claw and rake and rake and grapple....

That's where I pull out the GM Nuke.

"Don't have all that figured out in advance? Then you can't do it at the table."

(Exceptions made at lower level when it takes less time.)

That's the Druid's Homework, and I expect it to be done outside of Combat. Otherwise he's just willfully wasting everyone's time.

 

[hong]

From painful experience, the size modifiers for grapple are just too wonky. Get rid of them, and everyone will be much happier. A bigger creature gets a better strength... so why do we need to have things happen twice?

Cheers!

In fact, this is exactly the house rule I've used in Iron Heroes. The situation there is even more pressing, since you don't have magic to bail you out.

 

[Hairfoot]

From painful experience, the size modifiers for grapple are just too wonky. Get rid of them, and everyone will be much happier. A bigger creature gets a better strength... so why do we need to have things happen twice?

I get a bit fussy about combat realism, so I quite like the grapple scaling. Like they say: when a good big guy fights a good little guy, the big guy always wins.

Unless the little guy brings a gun.*


*That's a quote, but I can't remember from whom.