number of attacks when wildshaped
- Thread starter Olorin
- Start date
Camarath
Pale Master Tarrasque
and...
From SRD
From SRD
The Cornugon clearly gains natural attacks plus weapon attacks in the manner described in the MM. Note that the Cornugon loses it claw attacks because it uses it hands (on which are its claws) to wield its spiked chain but retains all other natural attacks.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
God, I hate WOTC customer support -- that answer is completely unfounded in the rules. Where does it suggest in the rules that changing into a nonhumanoid form limits you to two attacks?
Here's how we've played it, and I think this is backed up by the rules:
-When you polymorph into a creature, you normally attack like that creature. That means, you attack with the creature's natural weapons, and you use them as natural weapons. Natural weapons never benefit from iterative attacks.
-(Minor extrapolation from the rules) You may choose to attack like a person instead of like that creature. In such a case, you may make attacks as if you're in your normal form -- using a weapon if the creature is capable of holding a weapon, or with your bare appendages otherwise. You may make attack with up to two weapons/appendages, taking normal penalties for two-weapon fighting. You may take iterative attacks. If you are a monk, you may use flurry of blows or other funky powers, ONLY when fighting in this fashion.
Daniel
Here's how we've played it, and I think this is backed up by the rules:
-When you polymorph into a creature, you normally attack like that creature. That means, you attack with the creature's natural weapons, and you use them as natural weapons. Natural weapons never benefit from iterative attacks.
-(Minor extrapolation from the rules) You may choose to attack like a person instead of like that creature. In such a case, you may make attacks as if you're in your normal form -- using a weapon if the creature is capable of holding a weapon, or with your bare appendages otherwise. You may make attack with up to two weapons/appendages, taking normal penalties for two-weapon fighting. You may take iterative attacks. If you are a monk, you may use flurry of blows or other funky powers, ONLY when fighting in this fashion.
Daniel
reapersaurus
Explorer
I love how he invents a new term (trained attack) to give him "rules backup".paranoid said:
Seriously, until WotC makes it official, we are ALL in house rules territory with all of this (polymorph, wildshaping, and lycanthrope/monsters with levels).
Again, I love how prejudiced and ridiculous it sounds when they call a humanoid's attacks "trained", but supposedly an intelligent monster who has class levels, or even a humanoid who was born a natural lycanthrope couldn't ever "train" their unarmed attack? suuuure...
They only have a rules approach for unintelligent, non-classed monsters. Everything else WotC is unwilling to clarify.
Lastly, I think trying to get the rules straight on Polymorph is really the weakest and stickiest case:
I don't actually view Wildshape the same as Polymorph - Polymorph is a mage's cheesy change-form-into-anything spell - it's not like the form is a part of the mage in any way, he shouldn't become familiar with the form. Wildshaping, however, is very much an intrinsic part of a Druid's magic, and the limited forms he can take SHOULD be natural to him.
Even moreso, a Lycanthrope's form IS a part of him, and any rules interpretation to deny a 12th level Weretiger Fighter (with MultiAttack) from getting BAB attacks of +12 weapon/+10 claw/+10 bite/+7 weapon/+2 weapon would be met with serious questioning on my part...
edit: oops, I forgot to point out how the WotC Customer support guy forgot that the -1 size penalty to attack doesn't apply to grapples. It should have been +12 in the example, not +11.
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Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
reapersaurus said:
...not that you'd have any vested interest in such an interpretation
.Honestly, I'd interpret it against you. Folks with natural weapons don't normally get iterative attacks. The rules make it clear that you can fight in a different fashion -- one allowing iterative attacks, but heavily penalizing attacking with more than one weapon. I don't think you should be able to mix and match these two fighting styles: either you fight like a natural critter (i.e., no iterative attacks), or you fight like a person (i.e., iterative attacks, but trouble using multiple weapons). No creature in the rules that I'm aware of gains iterative attacks with natural weapons when those natural weapons have to-hit bonuses calculated like natural weapon to-hit bonuses (i.e., no penalty at all for the primary weapon(s) and -5 or -2 for all other natural weapons).
Daniel
Here's my take.
Creatures with natural attacks do not get iterative attacks. This means each natural weapon does not get multiple attacks, notwithstanding what the creature's BAB is. However, the "balance" for this is that many animals get multiple natural attacks, and do not suffer the savage two weapon fighting penalties of humanoids using manufactured weapons (all primary attacks - and there can be more than one - use the creature's BAB, all secondary attacks use the creatures BAB -5 [unless the creature has multiattack, in which case all secondary attacks use the creatures's BAB -2]).
A druid in wildshape gains all natural attack forms of the adopted animal, plant or elemental. He uses his normal BAB to determine the attack bonus of one natural weapon. This single natural weapon gains has a damage multiplier of 1, or 1.5 if it is the creature's only natural weapon. All other natural weapons are secondary attack forms. Not only does this penalise the druid's damage with those attacks (0.5 Str bonus only), but if the druid wants to use them, he is treated as attacking with two (or more) weapons, including suffering a -4 attack roll penalty with the primary natural weapon and a -8 attack roll penalty with all secondary natural weapons.
Druids in wildshape do not gain any bonuses to multiple attack sequences; they are treated as humanoids with "handedness", not animals, plants or elementals. A druid in wildshape suffers penalties for attacking with multiple weapons - as interpreted from the description of the alter self spell.
Thus, a 5th level druid (BAB +3) wildshaping into a wolf (Str 13, one bite) has a single bite attack at +4 (+3 BAB, +1 Str), and inflicts 1d6+1 points of damage. The same 5th level druid wildshaping into a black bear (Str 19, 2 claws, 1 bite) attacking as a standard action has one claw attack at +7 (+3 BAB, +4 Str), and inflicts 1d4+4 points of damage. However, if that druid wants to use a full attack action as a black bear, he has one claw attack at +3 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, -4 two weapon fighting penalty) for 1d4+4 points of damage, one claw attack at -1 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, -8 two weapon fighting penalty) for 1d4+2 points of damage, and one bite attack at -1 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, -8 two weapon fighting penalty) for 1d6+2 points of damage.
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
Creatures with natural attacks do not get iterative attacks. This means each natural weapon does not get multiple attacks, notwithstanding what the creature's BAB is. However, the "balance" for this is that many animals get multiple natural attacks, and do not suffer the savage two weapon fighting penalties of humanoids using manufactured weapons (all primary attacks - and there can be more than one - use the creature's BAB, all secondary attacks use the creatures BAB -5 [unless the creature has multiattack, in which case all secondary attacks use the creatures's BAB -2]).
A druid in wildshape gains all natural attack forms of the adopted animal, plant or elemental. He uses his normal BAB to determine the attack bonus of one natural weapon. This single natural weapon gains has a damage multiplier of 1, or 1.5 if it is the creature's only natural weapon. All other natural weapons are secondary attack forms. Not only does this penalise the druid's damage with those attacks (0.5 Str bonus only), but if the druid wants to use them, he is treated as attacking with two (or more) weapons, including suffering a -4 attack roll penalty with the primary natural weapon and a -8 attack roll penalty with all secondary natural weapons.
Druids in wildshape do not gain any bonuses to multiple attack sequences; they are treated as humanoids with "handedness", not animals, plants or elementals. A druid in wildshape suffers penalties for attacking with multiple weapons - as interpreted from the description of the alter self spell.
Thus, a 5th level druid (BAB +3) wildshaping into a wolf (Str 13, one bite) has a single bite attack at +4 (+3 BAB, +1 Str), and inflicts 1d6+1 points of damage. The same 5th level druid wildshaping into a black bear (Str 19, 2 claws, 1 bite) attacking as a standard action has one claw attack at +7 (+3 BAB, +4 Str), and inflicts 1d4+4 points of damage. However, if that druid wants to use a full attack action as a black bear, he has one claw attack at +3 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, -4 two weapon fighting penalty) for 1d4+4 points of damage, one claw attack at -1 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, -8 two weapon fighting penalty) for 1d4+2 points of damage, and one bite attack at -1 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, -8 two weapon fighting penalty) for 1d6+2 points of damage.
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
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FrankTrollman
First Post
The Custserv above answer is crap.
The key here is that Natural Weapon Attacks are a form of Unarmed Attack, but Unarmed Strikes are not a form of Natural Weapon Attack.
So the limit on one iterative attacks applies to gores, claws, bites, and rakes - but not to "unarmed strikes" or "grapples".
That's all very explicable.
The weird part is where Alter Self (and therefore Polymorph an Wildshape) says that you gain the natural weapons (which gives you the attacks), and also says that you don't get more attacks for having more limbs (completely contradicting the other bit).
So if you are a Cornugon, your attack patterns make perfect sense, and are explained fairly well in the Monster Manual. If you become a Cornugon, the rules conflict and I have no idea what is supposed to happen.
-Frank
The key here is that Natural Weapon Attacks are a form of Unarmed Attack, but Unarmed Strikes are not a form of Natural Weapon Attack.
So the limit on one iterative attacks applies to gores, claws, bites, and rakes - but not to "unarmed strikes" or "grapples".
That's all very explicable.
The weird part is where Alter Self (and therefore Polymorph an Wildshape) says that you gain the natural weapons (which gives you the attacks), and also says that you don't get more attacks for having more limbs (completely contradicting the other bit).
So if you are a Cornugon, your attack patterns make perfect sense, and are explained fairly well in the Monster Manual. If you become a Cornugon, the rules conflict and I have no idea what is supposed to happen.
-Frank
The 3.5th MM explains this clearly under "Manufactured Weapons" and "Natural Weapons" in the Appendix. Natural weapons don't grant iterative attacks. A humanoid's unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon to balance the monk class. You could argue that it is a "manufactured" weapon as human (or whatever) hands aren't designed to tear or bash, but "made into" fists. Just a simple attempt at explaining an abstract point in the game system.
- Cyraneth
- Cyraneth
