number of attacks when wildshaped

[Olorin]

I apologize if this has been answered before (and I'm sure it has). The search function seems a bit wonky and I didn't find anything helpful.

If a 12th level druid (+9 BAB) wildshapes say, into a polar bear:

How many attacks does he get? Full attack with 2 claws and bite or his normal 2 attacks at (+9/+4)? If it's 2 attacks, can he choose what natural weapons to use?

If he wildshaped into a Dog, which normally has only one attack (Bite +2), would he still be able to make 2 attacks with a full attack (2 bites?)

In any case, he uses his BAB and not that of the form he changes into, correct?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Darklone]

No iterative attacks with natural weapons.

 

[Olorin]

No iterative attacks with natural weapons.

What does this mean? You can only ever attack once a round when wildshaped, even if your BAB is high enough to grant multiple attacks?

 

[sithramir]

What does this mean? You can only ever attack once a round when wildshaped, even if your BAB is high enough to grant multiple attacks?

I believe you can't attack more times than you can normally. Since you gain all their natural attacks I would assume you can do a claw/claw or a claw/bite if you ahve above +6 bab.

 

[reapersaurus]

What does this mean? You can only ever attack once a round when wildshaped, even if your BAB is high enough to grant multiple attacks?

Here's the hilarious part, Olorin:

NOBODY KNOWS.

Isn't that funny? No matter what anybody tells you about natural attacks, it has never beem clarified what WotC means by "natural attacks never gain iterative attacks". There are examples that support both approaches.

I'd have to say the slightler more popular approach is that once you have natural weapons, you strangely can't use your BAB progression with them. Meaning, that in your example, he has to choose between EITHER a full attack (2 claws and bite), or his normal BAB progreassion (+9/+4), and he could choose which weapons, keeping in mind if any secondary attacks would be penalized. Wait, that doesn't work - there shouldn't be a double penalty there, but it seems that's the approach.

The other approach is as clear as the hand in front of my face (IMO):
What "natural attacks never gain iterative attacks" means is simply that no creature gains multiple natural attack progression on iterative attacks (meaning that your druid polar bear there wouldn't get 2 +9 claw attacks and a +4 bite attack, then get 2 +4 claw attacks and a -1 bite attack). It would NOT mean that you don't get your normal iterative attacks.

So your Druid there should get the 3 initial claw/claw/bite natural attacks, then his +4 iterative attack from his 'own levels'. This attack should probably use the primary weapon, to dodge any secondary weapon wonkiness. No - actually, on that second BAB attack, any of the attacks would be primary, since he's not getting iterative attack sequence on the second, BAB-granted attack.

The more I read that phrase "natural attacks never gain iterative attacks", the more clear and obvious it is to me. The natural attacks aren't getting iterative attacks - the BAB is.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Creatures using only their natural weapons don't get iterative attacks. An 18HD Dire Wolf has a BAB of 13, but gets a single bite for an attack. A 3HD Brown Bear has a BAB of +2, but gets 2 claw attacks and a bit attack.

The only place where I see a creature with a single attack getting multiple attacks is under the Druid Animal Companion listing. If you take a Wolf as a companion, it will get a second bite attack when it picks up the Multi-Attack special ability. It's an exception to the rule.

If you're able to change shape into a creature that could use a weapon. Then you would get your iterative attacks and you could make secondary attacks with your natural weapons. This part I'm not totally sure on, but I believe a Troll using a Greatsword would get iterative attacks with the sword, then a bite attack at BAB-5. If using a longsword, he'd get iterative attacks plus a claw and a bite (no rending though).

 

[Olorin]

I don't really care about iterative attacks...

All I am trying to figure out is:

A. How many natural attacks (full attack) and at what attack bonus would the 12th level druid wildshaped into a polar bear have?

+13 claw/+13 claw/+8 bite?
+9/+4?

If the latter, could he do a +9 claw and a +4 claw, or would it be +9 claw and +4 bite?

B. Wildshaped into a dog (or any other animal with less attacks than he normally gets).

+2 bite?
+9 bite?
+9 bite/+4 bite?

 

[reapersaurus]

For your interpretation to be correct, the rules would have to literally say that if you have a weapon in your hand, you get iterative attacks, but if you're attacking unarmed (unarmed strike = claw for a druid who's widshaped, or a Weretiger monk) than you don't get the attacks.

That is so silly that I cannot in all good conscience agree with that interpretation.

Olorin - I already described what attacks the druid would have.
I don't know about the rules for Wildshape are regarding STR, but if the Druid picks up the 27 STR (+8) from the polar bear and his BAB is +9/+4, than it'd be +17 claw/+17 claw/+12 bite/(+12 whichever).
The last +12 attack is from the Druid's BAB, and is not using "natural weapons" (i.e. the 2 claws and bite that the polar bear gets), they are from Druid level advancement. It can use any attack form it has for the last attack.

This is of course neglecting any feats or magic items or spells running...

 

[Dwarmaj]

For your interpretation to be correct, the rules would have to literally say that if you have a weapon in your hand, you get iterative attacks, but if you're attacking unarmed (unarmed strike = claw for a druid who's widshaped, or a Weretiger monk) than you don't get the attacks.

That is so silly that I cannot in all good conscience agree with that interpretation.

It may seem silly, but it's the rules...

Check out the FAQ under Combat Statistics. It gives examples and explanation as to why natural weapons don't get iterative attacks.

A Wildshaped Druid uses his own BAB plus the strength bonus of his current form to determine his "to hit". If your BAB is 9 and you get 8 from Str, then you get +17 Primary/+12 secondary. For a bear, their claw attack is their primary so you'd be +17claw/+17claw/+12bite.

 

[Olorin]

Thanks Dwarmaj and reapersaurus... it makes sense to me now. I'm going with Dwarmaj's numbers for the bear, +17/+17/+12.

The wildshaped dog would get one bite at +10 (9+1 for dog's str).

Thanks for all the help!