O.L.D. & N.E.W. Errata Thread

[osutuba]

Suggestion - Skills

I would suggest writing a short chapter that helps explain the benefits of skills. You mention the benefits of some skills (e.g., Running adds 1 to your SPEED stat), but lack a more comprehensive listing.

For example, does taking Unarmed give you +1 die to attack, damage, or both? Also, what stats do each skill listed use for their basis (e.g., Intimidate can use STR and CHA, depending on what you use).

You don't have to go into detail a la the Skills Chapter in the D&D books, though ... that would push this book to well over 300 pages. I leave that option completely up to you.

Another thing: On the original character sheet you have a skill marked "Specialization", but you don't mention anywhere in the rulebook whether this is the bold skill that is affiliated with your race (if not human) or if you choose one and what benefit (if any) that grants you.

 

[Sniperfox47]

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but this is the way I read it.

I would suggest writing a short chapter that helps explain the benefits of skills. You mention the benefits of some skills (e.g., Running adds 1 to your SPEED stat), but lack a more comprehensive listing.

Skills add +1 die to any *attribute* check for which the player can give a justification that they should be able to add +1 die to their roll. It relies on a system of implicit trust between the DM and player, rather than the system of explicit mechanics most RPGs use.

For example, does taking Unarmed give you +1 die to attack, damage, or both? Also, what stats do each skill listed use for their basis (e.g., Intimidate can use STR and CHA, depending on what you use).

It gives you +1 die to unarmed attacks , and +1 die on any *attribute* check you can justify getting a bonus from it. For example you're trying to burst open a door with a martial art kick, so your unarmed fighting training grants you +1 die on your strength check to kick the door in half. Since damage is not an attribute check, and it's not listed under the special skills section it's not affected by your skill.

You don't have to go into detail a la the Skills Chapter in the D&D books, though ... that would push this book to well over 300 pages. I leave that option completely up to you.

Skills in this and skills in D&D operate completely differently. If you're comparing the two you're looking at it wrong. Skills in this are more akin to the skill focus feats than to the skills themselves from D&D.

Another thing: On the original character sheet you have a skill marked "Specialization", but you don't mention anywhere in the rulebook whether this is the bold skill that is affiliated with your race (if not human) or if you choose one and what benefit (if any) that grants you.

No clue on this one. If I had to guess I'd say it's either a holdover from an old version of skills or a feature that's in the planning stages.

 

[osutuba]

Thanks for the clarification. I am so used to the AD&D rule set that I expected something like that in this system.

 

[Atom Mlatom]

Confusion about Weapon Quality table

On the table specifying the benefits of higher quality weapons, it heads a column with "Attack & Damage" for how many bonus dice. Is this bonus meant to be duplicated in both the attack and damage rolls, or is it just singularly pooled into the attack dice per the new mechanic of damage buying?

 

[Sniperfox47]

On the table specifying the benefits of higher quality weapons, it heads a column with "Attack & Damage" for how many bonus dice. Is this bonus meant to be duplicated in both the attack and damage rolls, or is it just singularly pooled into the attack dice per the new mechanic of damage buying?

Based on the sample weapons it's applied to both in the current playtest document pre-errata. It's possible that this may change with the new system but I wouldn't think so.

If left as it is it'd make more sense; a weapon made via a superior method would be easier to wield (attack bonus), would do damage more easily (damage bonus), and better withstand powerful strikes with the weapon (ability to trade the extra attack dice for damage when you need them).

 

[barasawa]

Skill questions and comment

I would suggest writing a short chapter that helps explain the benefits of skills. You mention the benefits of some skills (e.g., Running adds 1 to your SPEED stat), but lack a more comprehensive listing.

...

I understand that the list of skills is an incomplete list of suggested skills, though the ones listed for race and specific traditions is more than suggested. However, I do agree that they could use some description.

Of course, the Rule Zero always applies, but it's usually better to avoid issues and butting heads by making things clear at the beginning. In this case, that would be at character creation. (I've seen a lot of people totally wrap their character concept about one single thing. That includes me a few times.)

On my part, this is just a request and suggestion. I'm sure you've all seen stuff like this go a bit sour in other games when something basic and possible vital is disagreed on by players.

Though I do have a specific question. What the heck use is Meditation?! Sure, in the real world, it's supposed to be a way to 'center yourself'. Pretty much everyone recognizes it as the old sitting down mumbling mantras and basically doing nothing. I really don't see that having a game effect, other than expending time out of combat, which of course, you don't need to take actions to do. In other games, I've seen meditation used for many things, negating penalties, stopping poison, recharging magic, doing ritual magics, asking the GM questions, and so many others. This is something that seems it should be on the special skills list. Since it's not, I'd just ignore it and toss it out as only a hobby skill, but it's on the list of several traditions, so it must have some kind of function. If it's in the doc somewhere, I haven't read it yet, but that's possible. Of course, the effects of any skill is pretty much assumed to be listed in the skills area.

Along with Meditation, I feel I have to ask what's up with Dungeoneering? Humans have that on their skill list. Wait, humans are adventuring so much they all go on weekend dungeon crawls or something? Also, ignoring D&D for now, what the heck is it used for? Identifying secret doors, crossing over old rickety bridges, or every trap check and treasure search in an adventure? Maybe it's for designing and constructing dungeons, a dungeon engineer. It really seems that a sentence, possibly a short one, might clear that up.

Hey, I like it, and was finally able to convince the spouse to let me kickstart it (she usually has my entire check spent down to the cent 2 weeks before I get it), so please don't take this as a negative. After all, from the writers viewpoint I'm pretty sure there was a clear conception of what all those were, it's just us second hand readers that are wondering.

It does seem that a number of skills in the samples list overlap a lot if not completely, but that's ok, as it's an 'Open' list, so expect some synonyms. So if some were to be clarified, the ones in the Races and Traditions are probably the ones most likely to receive that attention.

Again, I'm babbling a whole lot. I'm a lousy writer and it's my vain attempt to try and make myself understood, while attempting to shoehorn in everything I'm thinking of, so it tends to run on like this sentence does.

 

[Sniperfox47]

Though I do have a specific question. What the heck use is Meditation?! Sure, in the real world, it's supposed to be a way to 'center yourself'. Pretty much everyone recognizes it as the old sitting down mumbling mantras and basically doing nothing. I really don't see that having a game effect, other than expending time out of combat, which of course, you don't need to take actions to do. In other games, I've seen meditation used for many things, negating penalties, stopping poison, recharging magic, doing ritual magics, asking the GM questions, and so many others. This is something that seems it should be on the special skills list. Since it's not, I'd just ignore it and toss it out as only a hobby skill, but it's on the list of several traditions, so it must have some kind of function. If it's in the doc somewhere, I haven't read it yet, but that's possible. Of course, the effects of any skill is pretty much assumed to be listed in the skills area.

The skill can be used to benefit anything it can be reasonably rationalized to benefiting (The playtest document uses the word "relevant". Reasonably rationalized is my interpretation of that, based on the example.).

For example, I realize I've been poisoned so due to my skill with meditation I do exercises to give me a +1 die bonus on my... END(?) check to resist the poisons effects.

Or I'm trying to cast a full-minute spell to stab someone with a lance of ice. My knowledge of meditation let's me do mental exercises to steady my emotions and let me cast better, giving me +1 die to my magic attack check (an opposed magic attribute check) but not on my damage since that's not an attribute check.

If the same player tried to use meditation to benefit a single-action signature spell they wouldn't be able to however because any *reasonable* rationalization of how meditation would help would require some minimum amount of time.

Along with Meditation, I feel I have to ask what's up with Dungeoneering? Humans have that on their skill list. Wait, humans are adventuring so much they all go on weekend dungeon crawls or something? Also, ignoring D&D for now, what the heck is it used for? Identifying secret doors, crossing over old rickety bridges, or every trap check and treasure search in an adventure? Maybe it's for designing and constructing dungeons, a dungeon engineer. It really seems that a sentence, possibly a short one, might clear that up.

Again, skills in D&D/D20 system are groups of specific actions. Skills in this are more akin to skills from Shadowrun than skills from D&D.

They are not specific actions rather they are general areas of knowledge and ability. The human may not go on dungeon crawls but humans are curious so he may have explored a cave or dungeon and has knowledge from that that he can apply to different aspects of his life.

It does seem that a number of skills in the samples list overlap a lot if not completely, but that's ok, as it's an 'Open' list, so expect some synonyms. So if some were to be clarified, the ones in the Races and Traditions are probably the ones most likely to receive that attention.

It could definitely use a couple examples, rather than just the one but honestly I think its more an issue of the clarity of wording than how much it explains them.

I agree that if you're moving from a system like D20/D&D to this kind of skill system, the name "skill" is confusing and takes some getting used to. There's not really a better word for it though.

 

[barasawa]

my unclear comments

Thanks for the reply SniperFox.
I've actually played a lot of games, especially ones that aren't in the class/level D&D mold.
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of games have some rather messy arguments when something is vague.
(Let's not talk about Whitewolf and their utter worship at the altar of the ill defined.) Unfortunately, the skills happen to be one area where that can occur. For me, most of them are not a problem, but I can easily see some of those skills causing some conflict. In my opinion, if possible, it's usually best to resolve differences of opinions regarding this type of issue before they occur with a bit of definition.

I don't think an entire list of skills and their clarifications is appropriate as that might require an entire additional book. Just a bit on the ones that are bound to be up front in everyones possible choices, the ones listed for the races and traditions.

Sorry that my posting wasn't all that clear, or my lousy attempts at humor failed, but like I said, my writing skills aren't that good. I hope this at least clears up. If not, I doubt we have enough time for my writing skills to improve enough.

Again, thanks for comments.

 

[Sniperfox47]

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of games have some rathe some conflict. In my opinion, if possible, it's usually best to resolve differences of opinions regarding this type of issue before they occur with a bit of definition.

The issue I see with that is if you want to define all the possible cases any of these skills can be used in it would take an infinite number of cases. That's why I suggested having a couple examples that work and some that don't, as a guideline.

The way this system is written, in my opinion, may allow some discussion and "wiggle-room" on skills, but in my experience as a DM that's not a bad thing.

If you make close-ended skills like D&D, I've found that players feel locked in by the rules and don't try to explore alternate methods of using skills. On the other hand if you leave it open-ended like Shadowrun (and this), I've found that players own their skills a lot more and take considerations like "I know knitting... Can I use that in some way to help me make these vines into a roof for us tonight?".

That being said it will increase conflict, particularly with "rules-guru" players, but making sure that the game suits our particular group, including our guru, is my job, not Morrus'.

 

[Atom Mlatom]

Noticed a confusing use of the word "Ambidexterity" in OLD...

Firstly, became familiar with this word as a Combat Trick.

But then.... a player took it as a Skill!

Of course, I went to correct him and explain the difference between Skills blah blah blah, but then he pointed it out to me right there in the Gladiator tradition stat block. Ambidexterity. A skill. Huh.

So ... here's what I did, I assumed that those traditions had some really nice buy ins, and I allowed players to take such skills as described in the Combat Tricks portion.

But to clarify, was that redundancy intended in the doc? The Tradition that lists it as a skill is specifically Gladiator, that I know of, but I didn't scour the doc to make sure it wasn't elsewhere or that there weren't similar issues.