Oathbound - an overlooked setting?

[Steverooo]

Well, I have my three books, now (BFG included Plains of Penance, too)! I'm looking through the hardback, first. Interesting, so far.

 

[Ghostwind]

Keep us posted about your thoughts, Steverooo...

 

[DMH]

Arena is now for sale at rpgnow.

 

[Steverooo]

The actual "cost" for a key of binding is up in the air. Oft times, they need to be found. According to O: DotF, each key is unique. In my campaign, a key of binding is something a character needs to create themselves, using something (unique to each person) from each domain. It ain't easy to get out of MY Forge.

Actually, the cost is not up in the air... The cost for five or six of the seven parts is 1,000 GP/level. The keys can be constructed to work at any level, but won't work if you advence past it... The other "one or two parts" have to be adventured for... Hence the need to explore.

So, in other words, I guess my poor PC is stuck, for a while! <Grumble, grumble!)

 

[Steverooo]

Keep us posted about your thoughts, Steverooo...

Well, my FIRST thought was that I'm disappointed with my poor PC's Shapechange gift... I can become a single other creature twice/day? That seems pretty chintzy, especially compared to the +6 Competence Bonuses given on many of the skills... Seems like an unlimited number of uses/day would have been... more equitible.

The next thing I noticed was that the product was written for 3.0, making use of the Intuit Direction & Wilderness Lore rules... The determining directions schtick (15, 20, 25) DCs are too high, and generally useless, to boot! (This is the reason that Intuit Direction was removed as a skill from 3.5... A DC:15 skill check simply isn't worth the investment of skill points, as compared to other skills)! There is a problem, here, as well... a couple, actually!

Does the yellow sun rise in the east and set in the west, as on Earth? If so, determining direction is automatic, as long as the PC has 5+ ranks of Survival (which replaced Wilderness Lore in 3.5e). Even if the "portals/stars" aren't visible, this is easy to determine, with a stick method... Likewise, all of the "Earthian" methods for determining direction should also work as well, if not even better. (Moss grows on the north sides of lone trees in the northern hemisphere, south sides of ones in the southern; clouds move from west to east, shadow-stick methods, etc.) Even with two suns, none of this is made any harder... There is just no reason (that I can see) for making knowing which way is North DC:25. It's just plain silly. Assume any PC with Survival 5+ is perfectly capable of figuring it out, and get on with the adventure!

I also found the "invention" of (so far) Knowledge (Astronomy/Astrology) and City Knowledge/Lore ridiculous. Skill points are already too limited. Creating new sinks for them is, IMHO, counter-productive, and just another way to "keep characters down" - especially with the "You can't even attempt to know that, because your PC has no Ranks in Knowledge (Whatever)" schtick. Allow me to elucidate:

City Lore should be subsumed in Knowledge (Local) and Survival (formerly Wilderness Lore). Bastion had no reason to invent a whole new skill, just to cover tracking in the city. Knowing your way around Penance, and which areas are safe, etc., was already covered by Know. (Local). Inventing a new skill for city-based tracking was uneccesary. To quote a real-world expert, here's a snippet from my article "Tracking: It's More Than Just "Duh! Dey Went Dattaway!""

"This article is a bit more firmly based on reality. I am a firm believer in "Harder Fantasy". Like "Hard Science Fiction", the world has laws, and while magic may overcome them, sans the interference of magic, the fantasy world operates much as this one does... So, what is possible with tracking, in the real world? To answer that question, let me give my favorite quote from Supervisory Border Patrol Agent (Retired) Jack Kearney's book, Tracking: A Blueprint For Learning How, page 31:

"One of my most challenging tracking experiences began to unfold on the night of July 3rd, 1962, when a small Mexican national entered the United States surreptitiously near Tijuana, Mexico, and started a walk which he hoped would bring him to Los Angeles. We cut his track at dawn the following morning and started following it. With a team of trackers always on the trail and other officers cutting for sign ahead, we had, by late afternoon, taken the trail over 35 circuitous miles to the intersection of Main and Second Street in El Cajon. At this point our quarry turned west on Main Street and began walking directly through the center of the city which, at that time, had a population of nearly 40,000 people. However, the markings on the bottom (sic) of his shoes were so unique that we were able to find and identify his track in the few dirt areas available. We continued following him directly through the busiest part of the city for nearly two miles to its western edge, southwest towards the freeway, then back north on the railroad tracks where, at nearly nine o'clock in the evening we caught up with him, and made the arrest." Well, so much for not being able to track through urban terrain!"

So, again, no need for a new, "Urban Tracking" skill points sink! Just treat it as hard terrain, DC:15 as a base, and apply the usual modifiers. It's hard enough. (Also note that, if you're using my system for tracking, beating the DC to track by so much provides additional information, so "beating the DC" becomes very important!) And as for Knowledge (Astrology)? Seems to me that Knowledge (Nature) already covers the locations of the heavenly bodies, well enough. No need for it.

If you're new to an area (like Penance) just apply a -2 Circumstance Modifier to Knowledge (Local). That seems sufficient to cover it, to me. YMMV.

Well, that's it, so far... Oh, yeah! Also, on a lot of the gifts granting +6 Competance Bonuses to skills... I thought +5 from any bonus type was supposed to be the highest?

 

[tf360]

Well, my FIRST thought was that I'm disappointed with my poor PC's Shapechange gift... I can become a single other creature twice/day? That seems pretty chintzy, especially compared to the +6 Competence Bonuses given on many of the skills... Seems like an unlimited number of uses/day would have been... more equitible.

The next thing I noticed was that the product was written for 3.0, making use of the Intuit Direction & Wilderness Lore rules... The determining directions schtick (15, 20, 25) DCs are too high, and generally useless, to boot! (This is the reason that Intuit Direction was removed as a skill from 3.5... A DC:15 skill check simply isn't worth the investment of skill points, as compared to other skills)! There is a problem, here, as well... a couple, actually!

Does the yellow sun rise in the east and set in the west, as on Earth? If so, determining direction is automatic, as long as the PC has 5+ ranks of Survival (which replaced Wilderness Lore in 3.5e). Even if the "portals/stars" aren't visible, this is easy to determine, with a stick method... Likewise, all of the "Earthian" methods for determining direction should also work as well, if not even better. (Moss grows on the north sides of lone trees in the northern hemisphere, south sides of ones in the southern; clouds move from west to east, shadow-stick methods, etc.) Even with two suns, none of this is made any harder... There is just no reason (that I can see) for making knowing which way is North DC:25. It's just plain silly. Assume any PC with Survival 5+ is perfectly capable of figuring it out, and get on with the adventure!

I also found the "invention" of (so far) Knowledge (Astronomy/Astrology) and City Knowledge/Lore ridiculous. Skill points are already too limited. Creating new sinks for them is, IMHO, counter-productive, and just another way to "keep characters down" - especially with the "You can't even attempt to know that, because your PC has no Ranks in Knowledge (Whatever)" schtick. Allow me to elucidate:

City Lore should be subsumed in Knowledge (Local) and Survival (formerly Wilderness Lore). Bastion had no reason to invent a whole new skill, just to cover tracking in the city. Knowing your way around Penance, and which areas are safe, etc., was already covered by Know. (Local). Inventing a new skill for city-based tracking was uneccesary. To quote a real-world expert, here's a snippet from my article "Tracking: It's More Than Just "Duh! Dey Went Dattaway!""

"This article is a bit more firmly based on reality. I am a firm believer in "Harder Fantasy". Like "Hard Science Fiction", the world has laws, and while magic may overcome them, sans the interference of magic, the fantasy world operates much as this one does... So, what is possible with tracking, in the real world? To answer that question, let me give my favorite quote from Supervisory Border Patrol Agent (Retired) Jack Kearney's book, Tracking: A Blueprint For Learning How, page 31:

"One of my most challenging tracking experiences began to unfold on the night of July 3rd, 1962, when a small Mexican national entered the United States surreptitiously near Tijuana, Mexico, and started a walk which he hoped would bring him to Los Angeles. We cut his track at dawn the following morning and started following it. With a team of trackers always on the trail and other officers cutting for sign ahead, we had, by late afternoon, taken the trail over 35 circuitous miles to the intersection of Main and Second Street in El Cajon. At this point our quarry turned west on Main Street and began walking directly through the center of the city which, at that time, had a population of nearly 40,000 people. However, the markings on the bottom (sic) of his shoes were so unique that we were able to find and identify his track in the few dirt areas available. We continued following him directly through the busiest part of the city for nearly two miles to its western edge, southwest towards the freeway, then back north on the railroad tracks where, at nearly nine o'clock in the evening we caught up with him, and made the arrest." Well, so much for not being able to track through urban terrain!"

So, again, no need for a new, "Urban Tracking" skill points sink! Just treat it as hard terrain, DC:15 as a base, and apply the usual modifiers. It's hard enough. (Also note that, if you're using my system for tracking, beating the DC to track by so much provides additional information, so "beating the DC" becomes very important!) And as for Knowledge (Astrology)? Seems to me that Knowledge (Nature) already covers the locations of the heavenly bodies, well enough. No need for it.

If you're new to an area (like Penance) just apply a -2 Circumstance Modifier to Knowledge (Local). That seems sufficient to cover it, to me. YMMV.

Well, that's it, so far... Oh, yeah! Also, on a lot of the gifts granting +6 Competance Bonuses to skills... I thought +5 from any bonus type was supposed to be the highest?

Wow, that's a lot to reply to, but I'll give it a shot. Domains of the Forge was released in 2002, so yes, it is still 3.0. The Oathbound Player's Guide will update the mechanical aspects of Domains of the Forge, i.e. races, prestige classes, prestige races, etc. to 3.5 and correct some of the things that you pointed out. I'll try to address each in turn.

I agree with you on the two suns and determining direction situation, so that's not even mentioned in the Player's Guide. Take that as you being correct.

I ditched Knowledge (astronomy) and City Lore in the Player's Guide. I felt the same way, the Knowledge (local) and Survival covered any gaps in City Lore. Knowledge (astronomy) I just felt was too narrow a niche to warrant its own Knowledge category. The only two Knowledge categories that I did add were Knowledge (earth)-which covered geology, mining (important aspects that appear in Arena) and Knowledge (water) covering aspects of all bodies of water as well as aquatic monsters.

As far as urban tracking goes, it's pretty difficult but not impossible to track someone through a city. Although the excerpt that you posted is based on a real account, tracking someone through a city, (I know, I've done it for my "real" job), depends a lot more on keeping them in your sight than following actual footprints, which is impossible on sidewalks and asphalt. I do have first hand knowledge of a would-be thief that broke into a gas station safe, stole the money and walked home without realizing that the floor had just been painted. The thief lived in the adjoining apartment so the police just followed her footsteps back to her front door.

I also toned down the gifts to make them comply with 3.5 rules and provide more balance. There are no +6 competence bonuses anymore.

 

[Bront]

I like the setting, but haven't had a chance to fool around with it much as a player or a GM other than to raid it for ideas. The Frey are cool (Though their strange strike power seems odd and overbalanced, so we just nix it).

 

[Kobold Avenger]

As far as urban tracking goes, it's pretty difficult but not impossible to track someone through a city. Although the excerpt that you posted is based on a real account, tracking someone through a city, (I know, I've done it for my "real" job), depends a lot more on keeping them in your sight than following actual footprints, which is impossible on sidewalks and asphalt. I do have first hand knowledge of a would-be thief that broke into a gas station safe, stole the money and walked home without realizing that the floor had just been painted. The thief lived in the adjoining apartment so the police just followed her footsteps back to her front door.

Isn't the Urban Tracking feat based on the Gather Information skill, Open Content?

 

[Steverooo]

Wow, that's a lot to reply to, but I'll give it a shot. Domains of the Forge was released in 2002, so yes, it is still 3.0. The Oathbound Player's Guide will update the mechanical aspects of Domains of the Forge, i.e. races, prestige classes, prestige races, etc. to 3.5 and correct some of the things that you pointed out. I'll try to address each in turn.

I agree with you on the two suns and determining direction situation, so that's not even mentioned in the Player's Guide. Take that as you being correct.

Cool! Nice to know that we agree!

I ditched Knowledge (astronomy) and City Lore in the Player's Guide. I felt the same way, the Knowledge (local) and Survival covered any gaps in City Lore. Knowledge (astronomy) I just felt was too narrow a niche to warrant its own Knowledge category. The only two Knowledge categories that I did add were Knowledge (earth)-which covered geology, mining (important aspects that appear in Arena) and Knowledge (water) covering aspects of all bodies of water as well as aquatic monsters.

The problem with adding new Knowledge skills, as I see it, is that they require skill points (usually 2/rank), and you have too few, already. Therefore, I see adding new ones as a bad thing. This is exascerbated by the "You can't know anything above DC:10 without one (full) rank in the skill" rule, and the fact that most classes get few (Rogue) if any (Fighter) Knowledge skills...

Knowledge (Earth) for Geology/Mining would seem to fit into either Knowledge (Nature), and/or Knowledge (Dungeoneering), as well as (for the latter, at least) Profession (Miner), which any class but the poor Fighter has access to. Knowledge (Water) is an aspect of the overly-broad-but-generally-useless Knowledge (Nature) skill. Then again, I'm sure that you've noticed that I'm not writing the book.

As far as urban tracking goes, it's pretty difficult but not impossible to track someone through a city. Although the excerpt that you posted is based on a real account, tracking someone through a city, (I know, I've done it for my "real" job), depends a lot more on keeping them in your sight than following actual footprints, which is impossible on sidewalks and asphalt. I do have first hand knowledge of a would-be thief that broke into a gas station safe, stole the money and walked home without realizing that the floor had just been painted. The thief lived in the adjoining apartment so the police just followed her footsteps back to her front door.

Tracking very rarely involves following footprints AT ALL. It is all about following SIGNS. Sign is more usually where a boot hits the ground, depressing something. Even when a bootprint is not visible, it is often possible to tell that something passede across an area. Consider, for instance, a stand of tall grass... Even if you can't see any tracks, because the grass is too springy, it is easy enough to tell when something has passed through the grass, because it will all be bent over in the same way, while all the grass around it stands relatively straight...

Passing across rock (and urban terrain) still disturbs anything that is there, on the rock (or road). Also, as you travel through an area, you tend to pick up things, which get deposited farther along. Mud or dirt falls from the cracks in the tread of your boots, dust from the trail comes off, you step in a puddle, or a pile of dead leaves or other litter, and your foot crushes them... All of these leave sign, which a tracker can follow. By taking a good look at one of the (relatively rare) bootprints, when it appears, and sketching what it looks like, the tracker can know it when he sees it, again. The rest of the way, he will be using his tracking pole.

By observing where a creature steps, and moving a band or piece of string along his pole, a tracker can get the distance from heel to toe on one foot, and from the toe of one foot to the heel of the next. Using that, (s)he can determine approximately where the next print would be, and know where to look for sign.

The main signs to look for are flattening, regularity (which doesn't exist in nature, such as when the gravel is depressed in 18" ovals about three feet apart along a certain line, but nowhere else, for instance), color changes (a fallen leaf vs. one that has been stepped on, or fresh, loose dirt vs. compressed earth), and disturbance (rocks, in nature, tend to be weathered, and lighter on one side. If a rock is found splintered, and darker-side-up, it generally means that something has stepped on it, and flipped it over). These are the types of signs that a real-world tracker is going to follow... Tracks are actually rather rare, outside of mud, snow, and heavy ash/dust!

So no, tracking across asphalt isn't impossible, especially in the hotter months, when the tar is nice and melty. Kearney, in the quoted text, was not keeping the illegal in sight. He was tracking him, through downtown El Cahon, CA...

I also toned down the gifts to make them comply with 3.5 rules and provide more balance. There are no +6 competence bonuses anymore.

Heh! I don't recall if 3.5 and 3e had the same rule on that, or not... Anyhow, nice to know that they're being revamped... One of the ones in the book gives the same bonuses as the (new in 3.5e) Stealthy Feat! Compared to the +6 gifts (which no longer exist), that wasn't too balanced, either.

So, what changes to the Shapechange gift? I have about a buzillion questions I could pester you with, about that one...

Anyhow, keep up the good work, guys! Ifya want feedback (I keep hearing someone lamenting "How did we get ourselves into this?"), I'll letcha know what I think... Just keep yer salt-shakers handy! (Opinionated? Who? ME?!?)

 

[HellHound]

Also, on a lot of the gifts granting +6 Competance Bonuses to skills... I thought +5 from any bonus type was supposed to be the highest?

Yoinks. Better get rid of those +6 belts of strength, and so on.

The +5 limiter, as far as I know, is specifically only applied to Stat bonuses gained through wish spells and similar magics.