D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight

[Hussar]

It's absolutely clear that blindsight allows you to "see"; as it cancels all the various mitigating factors that would prevent you from doing so (lack of light, lack of eyes, concealment, invisibility, etc).

It is explicitly stated that you cannot hide from something that can see more than 25% of you (subject to the exceptions of specific powers granted by race, class, etc).

There are only "many interpretations" if you suspend (either willfully or through ignorance) either the commonly accepted rules of logic or the commonly accepted definitions of basic vocabulary.

I think that would be my point. I have 4/4 cover by hiding behind a big rock. The creature with blindsight could not target me with, say, Charm Person, because that spell specifically states you need to see the target. Now, I make my stealth check and beat his perception check. I move out into the open and shoot - I would say I have advantage, after all, I could be shooting from a number of different positions as well as the fact that the opponent doesn't spot me until after I shoot. I then duck behind the big rock again. I would say I would have to make another Stealth check in order to attack with advantage, but, regardless, the opponent still cannot directly target me.

Note, if the opponent moves and gets a direct LOS on me, fair enough, he's going to spot me. But, that's on his turn, not mine.

 

[Authweight]

It's absolutely clear that blindsight allows you to "see"; as it cancels all the various mitigating factors that would prevent you from doing so (lack of light, lack of eyes, concealment, invisibility, etc).

It is explicitly stated that you cannot hide from something that can see more than 25% of you (subject to the exceptions of specific powers granted by race, class, etc).

There are only "many interpretations" if you suspend (either willfully or through ignorance) either the commonly accepted rules of logic or the commonly accepted definitions of basic vocabulary.

Nowhere does it say a creature automatically perceives everything around it and the only things stopping sight are specific rules like concealment and lack of light. What it says is that "most" creatures in combat are aware of everything around them, so if you come out of hiding it "usually" sees you. That wording is about as hedged as it gets.

Out of combat, none of that even applies. You can presumably prevent a creature from seeing you by coming up from behind it, something which has no basis in concealment, lighting, or cover rules.

The closest there is to RAW for stealth are some vague guidelines, everything else is fairly explicitly left up to the DM. I wish there was more clarity and guidance in the stealth rules, but there just isn't. There certainly isn't enough substance there to pin down a single clear and obvious way the stealth rules interact with blindsight.

 

[Gimul]

NO no nonono nonononononono no no.

I'm sorry, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. I thought I was pretty clear earlier, but I guess I need to repeat.

Concealment is not limited to visual queues. Concealment is ANYTHING that will help conceal your presence. Hunters use scent concealment from deer, for example. A creature with blindsight does not get automatic detection against all other forms of concealment; only that visual queues are not relevant. Therefore, concealment can still be accomplished via other means.

Extra irony for you for accusing others of suspeding "commonly accepted definitions of basic vocabulary" when that's exactly what you're doing above.

The concealment context here was clearly visual. The made clear by quoted reference to "see". Also note the very next paragraph where I explicitly make allowances for exceptions in situations where extra effort is used to defeat other senses that the fluff of the blindsight in question is based on. If you would like to troll me be my guest; but at least take the time to consider my posts in their entirety.

 

[Gimul]

I think that would be my point. I have 4/4 cover by hiding behind a big rock. The creature with blindsight could not target me with, say, Charm Person, because that spell specifically states you need to see the target. Now, I make my stealth check and beat his perception check. I move out into the open and shoot - I would say I have advantage, after all, I could be shooting from a number of different positions as well as the fact that the opponent doesn't spot me until after I shoot. I then duck behind the big rock again. I would say I would have to make another Stealth check in order to attack with advantage, but, regardless, the opponent still cannot directly target me.

Note, if the opponent moves and gets a direct LOS on me, fair enough, he's going to spot me. But, that's on his turn, not mine.

Blindsight ignores the concealment granted by the cover (granted in turn, by the rock).

 

[weldon]

Then explain why you would need a perception check and how? Give me a scenario where a creature with Blindsight would need to make a Perception check within its range?

A rogue attempts to stealth towards an adult green dragon in moderate foliage. The foliage would normally give disadvantage to the dragon's perception check. But because of blindsight, I can ignore the conditions on p.183 that modify how well the creature can *see* for stealth. I just use normal perception check without any disadvantage because of the foliage.

I think that reading is fairly consistent with the section on Light & Vision.

 

[Gimul]

Nowhere does it say a creature automatically perceives everything around it and the only things stopping sight are specific rules like concealment and lack of light. What it says is that "most" creatures in combat are aware of everything around them, so if you come out of hiding it "usually" sees you. That wording is about as hedged as it gets.

Out of combat, none of that even applies. You can presumably prevent a creature from seeing you by coming up from behind it, something which has no basis in concealment, lighting, or cover rules.

The closest there is to RAW for stealth are some vague guidelines, everything else is fairly explicitly left up to the DM. I wish there was more clarity and guidance in the stealth rules, but there just isn't. There certainly isn't enough substance there to pin down a single clear and obvious way the stealth rules interact with blindsight.

The rules of stealth clearly state that if you are not hidden, any creature that can see you is considered aware of you. It goes on to state the conditions necessary to hide. It further states that once hidden, if you move into open view; you cease to be hidden. It follows, quite directly, that if you hide and then move into a creature’s blindsight range; that the creature in question becomes aware of you (no differently than if you hide and then step out into plain view of a normally sighted creature).

 

[weldon]

Why [is] Blindsight a separate entry and a range if it does not detect everything within range? Why not list it as Blindsight and give it no range allowing stealth and the like to work? Why does a dragon with very good senses to begin with need Blindsight if it doesn't detect everything within its range including invisible and stealthing creatures? Might as well leave it with only the usual senses if Blindsight isn't superior. Seriously, why would you give a dragon Blindsight given all its other senses work just fine?

Are the people claiming a dragon's blindsight doesn't detect everything allowing Stealth rolls against it based on what...hearing....smell...touch? What Does a dragon's blindsight go off. It already has hearing, touch, and smell.

If Blindsight doesn't defeat Stealth and invisibility, what does it do for a creature like a dragon? Nothing since these folks disagreeing with me are basically saying it must make a regular Perception check that it would have had to make with its regular senses..

I think the text for blindsight is pretty clear that dragons have blindsight because their normal senses are heightened. Bats are mentioned as having echolocation, but there is nothing there to suggest that blindsense is a different category of perception than the other 4 senses compensating for the lack of sight.

 

[Hussar]

Blindsight ignores the concealment granted by the cover (granted in turn, by the rock).

So, you would rule that Blindsight is x-ray vision? Can I see through walls/doors with blindsight?

 

[weldon]

The rules of stealth clearly state that if you are not hidden, any creature that can see you is considered aware of you. It goes on to state the conditions necessary to hide. It further states that once hidden, if you move into open view; you cease to be hidden. It follows, quite directly, that if you hide and then move into a creature’s blindsight range; that the creature in question becomes aware of you (no differently than if you hide and then step out into plain view of a normally sighted creature).

I would argue that there is a difference between moving into open view (or plain view) and moving with stealth.

 

[Gimul]

I would argue that there is a difference between moving into open view (or plain view) and moving with stealth.

I would counter argue, that there is no relation between the manner of movement (stealth) and the destination (the open view of a creature).