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D&D 5E October 29th Playtest Class Changes

Yeah, but at 1st level, it's one round of spell and the rest at wills. At 3d level, it's 3 rounds of spells and the rest at-wills.
I thought it was 2 and a 'signature?'

But, yeah, you have to wonder how it's supposed to work out with the spells not 'scaling.' Presumably the idea is that at some point a 1st level spell stops being better than the next guy's at-will...?

It'd probably work better with more spells at the lowest levels, gaining them more slowly, and topping out with fewer. :shrug: Either that or just give the wizard a lot of spells but don't make them particularly potent...
 

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Ugh, I was a big fan of Next up to this packet and was looking forward to seeing more levels.

I'm massively disappointed. They removed basically all the possibilities for fun combos with Specialties and Expertise dice. Why is Jab gone? Why can't I make an Archer cleric anymore?

Two-weapon fighting was fun before. No penalties, a little less damage but a valid tactic with AC bonuses, and more attacks which was effective against high AC foes or if you had a rider on your attack (like poison or whatever).
Now you take Disadvantage on both attacks and don't add your Strength modifier to damage? Why would I ever want to do that? Would you rather have a decent chance to deal 1d8+3 damage or a terrible chance to deal 1d8+1d4 damage?

The new combat actions are blah. You can push an enemy 5 feet back. Yeah, great, too bad I can't really use Expertise dice to combo that with extra damage or whatever.

Why are Deities/Domains lessened in impact. I thought the whole idea was to make the Cleric feel very different based on who they worship. I loved that the Deity determined your weapon proficiencies for example. They don't do that anymore, for no apparent reason.

Basically, everything is much more locked down, much more boring, more penalizing, more dull, more clinical.

And then there are skills. We're back to Use Rope and Listen as skills? I thought everyone agreed those were terrible ideas.

And monsters...unlike many people here, I was fine with the very simple monsters. Now they've made them slightly more complex, given them more abilities, which is fine, too, but they somehow made them more boring as well. The implied tactic for most monsters (based on their special traits and abilities) is to simply gang on the PCs in twos or threes.
 

Overall, this is a step in the wrong direction for me, on many different levels, especially when there are so many small details that were fundamentally wrong but remain unchanged. Here are my specifics:

I understand why they extended the expertise dice mechanic to Rogues - I know I've been clamouring for a unified physical combat system since this was introduced - but I don't get why they are doing it in such a horrible, horrible way. They've hit the limitation of using dice in the first place, which is that there isn't enough design space to have different classes use it in different ways, hence Rogues are just Fighters with different maneuvers. They're also still trying to balance a host of at-will abilities, which I think is very difficult and ultimately, it's unexciting to manage round-by-round resources. At the very least they might have considered giving Rogues a free dice whenever they have advantage - all they are at the moment are weak fencers with skills.

Speaking of shared systems, we're still stuck in the same spellcasting paradigm. Now, I don't mind spell levels, spell slots and so on, but once more all that happens is a consistent increase in how many spells you get as you increase in level. They reduced it though! This doesn't solve the too-many-spells problem, and introduces a new not-enough-spells problem at low levels. I much preferred minor at-will spells to this 0th level business too. Why can't the number of spell slots you have increase slowly, with the maximum spell level available marked separately, why dictate both precisely? Give the class say, 4 slots, plus 1 every 3 levels, and have the maximum level (or total of all levels) be capped at 1 + 1 every 2 levels (or 4 + 1 every level maximum total).

Then, for both of these systems, why not make them multiclass friendly? Currently there's no way to combine spellcaster levels, I can see adding martial character levels to determine dice, but then there's still no way to combine the two. Must do better!

I am disappointed that the Cleric has gone back to being so bland, though I think the deity archetypes are a step in the right direction. I really want to know who thinks Turn Undead should be a special ability of all clerics - I liked Channel Divinity and its multiple uses for different deities (particularly as it could be gained through a speciality, a bit like the Divine Magic speciality tries at the moment). I feel that we've lost the priestly cleric, and their form of spellcasting is still very confusing.

The Fighter and Rogue I think I discussed above. I will add that giving Fighters an additional attack is interesting, but I suspect that it's just too large a jump in power at that level - the 1st playtest packet had a more scalable feature that gave you so many extra attacks a day, and I think this works better on a short-rest or long-rest recovery. Poor Rogues, only as many HP as a Wizard now, and struggling in combat, but proficiency in thieves' tools.. what?!

Then we have the Wizard, and I see they have solved changed the character low HP issue by bumping them up to Rogues. Yeah, not really getting the point is it? I'll complain here that we're still on +Con mod per level anyway so hit die barely matter anyway. There must be a comfortable medium between +con mod and +con score. Anyway, aside from the spellcasting rant above, I'm not particularly interested by traditions. I dislike signature spells, from the terrible wording of how they work to the actual choice of spells themselves. When they mentioned they were doing this I thought it might be interesting, that Battle Mages might get light armour casting, perhaps losing ritual casting as a tradeoff, and we might see spell school specialists that do more than just make your spell DC higher (yawn). But no, because of the sudden return of 0th level spells we mostly get some dictation of at-will powers and encounter powers, which is all a bit too 4E for me (especially after all that fuss about offering different magic systems as modules).

The racial options are still bland, and mixing up heritage with upbringing, and humans are the worst thing ever.

I maybe misunderstood how two-weapon fighting works now, but it seems.. sub-optimal. I haven't done the maths though. Whoever said it upthread was right: stop making it extra attacks. Let's do some maths on how it might work better:

  • A heavy weapon chosen for damage does 1d12. A sword and board combo chosen for damage does 1d8 damage and +1 AC. We can surmise that +1 AC is worth ~2 damage.
  • Let's restrict TWF to light weapons only, and make it a single attack, so that's 1d6 damage. I suggest TWF offers either +1 AC or +2 damage as a floating option every round. The former does less damage that S&B, the latter does less damage than a heavy weapon, but you have the flexibility of choice.
  • Alternatively, let's expand the field of options, remove the light weapon restriction, and have TWF offer +1 to hit. Then you can choose, +1 to hit, +1 to AC or +2 average damage. That seems reasonable to me.

Moving on, I think they're moving in the right direction with skills, though I dislike the return of some useless ones and the separation of listen/spot - pretty sure that this makes sneaking damned difficult again, even if you make only one stealth roll (they get two rolls to notice you: in effect advantage). Alert people are alert for both senses! Search is slightly different, it implies a methodical and intelligent approach that doesn't just rely on keen senses.

I think that specialities, the few we now have, are getting better, though the Arcane Magic one is now useless to non-casters. Yay, I get a spell! Once per day. It doesn't do much. Oh and then I get a feat I CAN'T USE ON MY ONLY SPELL. But hey, quickened light, right? They should follow the Divine Magic example here: give you a little more spellcasting each time, a 'taster' of being a mage. Bump up the power a bit though. Healer is also better, though there's still a silly maximum effect so that each potion is 14 HP. Use 'roll twice, take the better number' mechanics here, it's good, but not too good.

I can understand when designers follow a particular path, but it's not to my taste - I respect that 4E is well-designed, but I don't particularly like it. What I don't understand is design decisions that don't add anything, that don't help future design, that actively make things more difficult. I sadly feel that this packet suffers from the latter.
 

Mixed feelings...

First of all I am undecided about the general spellcasting changes... I thought that shrinking the number of slots per day was a horrible step towards the AEDU framework, but this comes together with also shrinking the number of at-will cantrips and limiting their choice. In a way, this change can have two benefits: reduces the "quadratic feel" of spellcasters, which also still depends on sheer spell power and amount of spells known, but at least is seriously limited if even at 10th level you have to be careful not to waste your slots because they won't last more than 2 encounters. BUT the flip of the coin is exactly that: ONE hard encounter and you've used up your highest-half of spellcasting ability. This could bring back the instinct of shortening adventuring days.


Cleric:

I am OK whether they want to base the class on domains or deities. What I seriously dislike is that MOST of the additional spells are already in the Cleric spell list. You get the benefit of having them prepared by default, but this means once again that clerics of all faiths are very similar to each other (Trickery being the only exception). Domains/Deities should rather give NEW known spells, otherwise unavailable to other clerics!

Very sad to see that domains don't affect armor proficiency anymore. But the "Disciple of..." domain powers are open to nice ideas.

I don't like "words of power", I like healing spells to require to touch the target, but this is a minor issue I can live with.

Turn Undead is an unsolvable problem: as a spell you get people complaining "I don't want to waste a precious slot to turn undead!", and as a non-spell you get people complaining "if I don't use it then I want it replaced with something else!". I strongly prefer it as a non-spell, but it really needs an alternative for those who don't want it.


Fighter:

The only two changes here are the extra attack (and I totally OK with it) and removing Parry from the automatically known maneuvers (on one hand it's worse for an already experienced player who now has 2 instead of 3 options for expertise, on the other hand it's better for a beginner who has an easier life).

Very good to clear it out that you can make your own style. By putting it this way, it's also easy for a DM to add some restrictions.


Rogue:

I knew that re-using expertise dice was a bad move...

Generally speaking, I want and expect the Fighter to be overall the best at fighting. I then expect the Rogue to be able to occasionally surpass the Fighter's damage output on an opportunistic and lucky blow. If it was up to me, I'd make Sneak Attack MORE powerful but RARE to pull it off. Now you can use it almost every round, but it is plain and simple a lesser version of Deadly Strike.

I understand that the purposes of making Sneak Attack optional is good, but it just doesn't fit together in the same mechanic as getting bonuses to skill checks and saving throws... because their numbers are not comparable. Maybe they could still use the mechanic, but then have options for only exploration-phase "maneuvers" (renamed, perhaps) and leave all the combat-related maneuvers exclusive to the Fighters, and then find another solution for Sneak Attack.


Wizard:

Once again I'm undecided about Traditions... the BEST about them is the unique benefits of each: Spell Mastery, Spell Tactician, Arcane Deception. THIS is the way to go IMHO, and would be even better if there were additional unique benefits at higher levels.

I am not a fan of this implementation of Signature Spells, but notice the following: a Wizard with Academic tradition is very similar to the previous version of the Wizard, with 3-4 cantrips at will. It might look like the fact that only those cantrips you prepared can be cast at will is a restriction; but compared to the previous version (which gave you 3 cantrips at will, period), this version means you're just the same (1 more actually) but you can swap them every day if you have more in your spellbook.

Thus Signature Spells are essentially in the game only if the DM allows Traditions other than Academic, and I am fine with this.
 

I don't mind signature spells, its just a spelll you have greater mastery of then others, pre 4e editions had the basic idea of signature spells, if not as encounters.

I also noticed with Lightbringer and Lifegiver your railroaded into casting only the spells on your domain list or you don't gain any benifit from your disciple of feature.

And yeah most of the manuevers aren't worth taking now, sneak attack is pathetic.

I'd say every class got nerfed brutally.

Over all they royally pooched this one, I'd say back to the drawing board. Maybe they should have been fixing this one instead of jumping ahead, because this packet is horrible.
 

Not a fan of turn undead and heavy armor for every cleric. So boring and lame. Have they not read their own fiction? I want clerics to be different, noticeably, if they serve different deities or causes. Of course, I cannot read the playtest, since wizards cannot reset my password, nor can they clear out my email and let me redo my enrollment. Unreal. And no, I do not want to UAE a different email....

Reading the comments above, I agree the rogue should generally do less damage, with the uncommon or rare opportunity to do massive damage.
 

I maybe misunderstood how two-weapon fighting works now, but it seems.. sub-optimal. I haven't done the maths though. Whoever said it upthread was right: stop making it extra attacks. Let's do some maths on how it might work better:

  • A heavy weapon chosen for damage does 1d12. A sword and board combo chosen for damage does 1d8 damage and +1 AC. We can surmise that +1 AC is worth ~2 damage.
  • Let's restrict TWF to light weapons only, and make it a single attack, so that's 1d6 damage. I suggest TWF offers either +1 AC or +2 damage as a floating option every round. The former does less damage that S&B, the latter does less damage than a heavy weapon, but you have the flexibility of choice.
  • Alternatively, let's expand the field of options, remove the light weapon restriction, and have TWF offer +1 to hit. Then you can choose, +1 to hit, +1 to AC or +2 average damage. That seems reasonable to me.

I wish the package had implemented more thinking like this: trying to find ways of balancing diversity without homogenization.
 

My comments:

Rogue
Needs more differentiation from the Fighter, though them getting manoeuvres and combat expertise is a good start, they now seem too much like a weaker and more circumstantial version of the fighter. Sneak Attack (which I feel that Rogues should automatically know) is just a weaker version of Deadly Strike, and for a class that's supposed to have a lot of tricks up their sleeves, they feel like a less versatile fighter with less manoeuvres . For another thing I feel that Schemes should be more than a list of bonus skills and manoeuvres, there should be another bonus of some sort and things unlocked at higher levels.

Clerics
Turn Undead just feels to limiting and it's not the sort of thing I feel that all Clerics should be using, the generic Channel Divinity that varies by deity was always a good concept. I'm also not a fan of Domains determining which spells are at-will, I think they should just have all 0-level spells be at-will, and Domains should have more other sorts of abilities. I think that Clerics should just get medium armour proficiency and having Protection or War Domain should give heavy. Also I don't think domains should be so front loaded. For spells, Cure spells should go back to dealing damage to undead and any spell that takes more than 1 round to cast should be a ritual.

Wizards
Again with Wizards I feel that 0-level spells should just be at-will (as it's disappointing that all Wizards can't use Detect Magic at-will which is a must have spell), and that Traditions should give other bonuses. Traditions along with Wizards are also to front loaded. I think it's more interesting if Wizards unlock more things at later levels other than spells. Some traditions could have things like damage bonuses to certain spells (Battle-wizards), energy resistance at later levels (Elementalists), more weapon or armour proficiency (Abjurers). For spells in general, I want a return to the cascade of spells per day with more lower level spells at higher levels, though not as big as it was before, maybe it tops out at 3 or 4 1st level spells. Among other things I think that signature spells should change at higher levels, or Wizards get another signature spell or something. Also many of the divination spells should be castable as rituals, more spells need scaling if prepared as higher levels, and many Wizard spells need to do more damage, if they don't do any sort of "control" thing.
 


Like what? Improved defense? That's no different than carrying a shield. Ability to screw up and cut oneself? Nah, we really don't need fumble rules.

Face it, people want TWF to do two attacks. The disadvantage mechanic seems better than the feat-stack-with-penalties of other editions (pre-playtest).

My suggestion would be to give two weapon fighters an attack bonus to represent the greater flexibility they have over a single weapon. Thus:

  • Two handed weapon: more damage
  • Two weapons: attack bonus
  • One weapon and a shield: defense bonus.
Making an attack is already described as more than a single swing, but as a series of motions intended to create and take advantage of an opening. Having two weapons doesn't let you do that more often, but it does provide you more options.



Perhaps as an optional rule, anyone may attack two enemies, with both attacks having disadvantage and the damage split, as in the previous packet.
 

Into the Woods

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