D&D 5E October 29th Playtest Class Changes

[ferratus]

Thread for discussing the meat of this playtest, class changes.

Cleric - New Diety types, trickster, protector, lifegiver that give domain spells. Not really an improvement over 3e domains, with less customization. Turn Undead is now something all clerics do, because YOU demanded it. You guys do realize that turn undead/channel divinity class ability was just an extra spell slot with less customization right? No? Well it is.

Fighter - Much the same, but can take the sneak attack maneuver. Good move, because now I don't have to take a level of rogue when all I want is flanking advantage. Veteran combat style for you stolid types who won't give in.

Rogue - Expertise dice have basically made the rogue the agile fighter. I don't mind that really, as the rake and the acrobat are a core thief archetype. But I want to play a rogue that is effective in combat that isn't an agile fighter. Where is the guy who cheats to win? Sneak attack isn't enough to cover that archetype of scoundrel, and that's the one I want to play.

Wizard - Less spells per day than we've seen in a awhile, but you can swap them out for spells you know. I like it, because generally wizards need to be taken down a notch. If a 10th level wizard can only summon up 10 powerful spells a day (and charged wands and scrolls stay gone) then a fighter can bear it out with his hp and keep on coming. 20 spells + 50 in a wand, not so much.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Wizard - Less spells per day than we've seen in a awhile, but you can swap them out for spells you know. I like it, because generally wizards need to be taken down a notch. If a 10th level wizard can only summon up 10 powerful spells a day (and charged wands and scrolls stay gone) then a fighter can bear it out with his hp and keep on coming. 20 spells + 50 in a wand, not so much.

I doubt the point is PvP, but the general assumption they're balancing around, according to one L&L, was something like 4 encounter of 4-5 rounds or the equivalent - about 20 rounds. 20 spells means daily power ever round. 10 means 2-3 per encounter, or about like an single-encounter day in 4e.

To put it another way, discounting the signature spell, at 10 spells/day, the wizard's prepped spells would have to be better than the fighter's round-by-round attacks by exactly as much as his at-will are /worse/. That's clearly not the case.

At 20 spells day, the wizard's prepped spells would be de-facto at-wills.

 

[FireLance]

At 20 spells day, the wizard's prepped spells would be de-facto at-wills.

That said, a 1st-level spell from a high-level wizard is probably less effective than even a 10th-level fighter's at-wills. A 1st-level magic missile deals 2d4+5 damage. A 10th-level fighter who hits with his weapon attack can use his expertise dice to add 3d10 damage. With the Glancing Blow maneuver, he can still deal 3d10 damage provided his "attack result is a 10 or higher" - which I interpret to mean that he must hit AC 10, something that a 10th-level fighter should be able to do on any result short of a natural 1.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Fighter - Much the same, but can take the sneak attack maneuver. Good move, because now I don't have to take a level of rogue when all I want is flanking advantage. Veteran combat style for you stolid types who won't give in.

Fighters can't take the Sneak Attack Maneuver and Deadly Strike is just a non-conditional version of it or it would be better to say that Sneak attack is a conditional version of Deadly Strike.

 

[MortalPlague]

With the Glancing Blow maneuver, he can still deal 3d10 damage provided his "attack result is a 10 or higher" - which I interpret to mean that he must hit AC 10, something that a 10th-level fighter should be able to do on any result short of a natural 1.

Actually, he can roll all his expertise dice, but he only gets the highest result as actual damage. He doesn't get all three.

On another note, one subtle change I've noticed; expertise dice refresh at the end of your turn. Makes sense to me. No need to save them in case you get attacked, now you can spend them if you haven't needed them before your turn.

Fighters can't take the Sneak Attack Maneuver and Deadly Strike is just a non-conditional version of it or it would be better to say that Sneak attack is a conditional version of Deadly Strike.

Good catch, I didn't notice the list. I assumed that all maneuvers were available to all characters. I see that is not the case, though there's a fair bit of overlap.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I doubt the point is PvP, but the general assumption they're balancing around, according to one L&L, was something like 4 encounter of 4-5 rounds or the equivalent - about 20 rounds. 20 spells means daily power ever round. 10 means 2-3 per encounter, or about like an single-encounter day in 4e.

To put it another way, discounting the signature spell, at 10 spells/day, the wizard's prepped spells would have to be better than the fighter's round-by-round attacks by exactly as much as his at-will are /worse/. That's clearly not the case.

At 20 spells day, the wizard's prepped spells would be de-facto at-wills.

Yeah, but at 1st level, it's one round of spell and the rest at wills. At 3d level, it's 3 rounds of spells and the rest at-wills.

I think a 3/day/level max would be fine. That's either three rounds of combat spells, or the ability to do one offense, one defense, one utility when you max out spell levels.

I'm OK with the wizard having more choices, just don't make them overpowering. Eliminating spell scaling is one step in that direction; make sure there are not utility spells that eliminate classes is another. Players should have enough choices to stay fun and interesting; don't balance the game by eliminating variety, balance the game by making the variety balanced.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Yeah, but at 1st level, it's one round of spell and the rest at wills. At 3d level, it's 3 rounds of spells and the rest at-wills.

I think a 3/day/level max would be fine. That's either three rounds of combat spells, or the ability to do one offense, one defense, one utility when you max out spell levels.

I'm OK with the wizard having more choices, just don't make them overpowering. Eliminating spell scaling is one step in that direction; make sure there are not utility spells that eliminate classes is another. Players should have enough choices to stay fun and interesting; don't balance the game by eliminating variety, balance the game by making the variety balanced.

If you don't consider everything the wizard has access to you miss out on a lot.

0-level spells are roughly half as powerful as first level spells and each tradition can use at least 3 at-will.

Academics get an addition highest level spell slot and both Color Spray (the Illusionist signature) and Thunderwave (Battle Mage signature) are decent spells to keep prepared.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

This playtest feels very clean to me. For the most part, each class and specialty is tightly focused.

I think I can get behind the new Cleric and Wizard, though the Lightbringer deity should probably be renamed. Using the literal meaning of Lucifer doesn't seem like a good idea.

Maneuvers look like a well implemented system for martial abilities. We'll see how it plays. Still, I think the Fighter's styles each need some unique ability that isn't a maneuver.

I'm not happy with Two Weapon Fighting. They really need to drop the idea of getting multiple attacks, and focus on other advantages of wielding two weapons.

 

[ferratus]

I think I can get behind the new Cleric and Wizard, though the Lightbringer deity should probably be renamed. Using the literal meaning of Lucifer doesn't seem like a good idea.

Heh, good catch. It can also mean "light bearer", much like St. Chistopher is the "Christ bearer".

I'm not happy with Two Weapon Fighting. They really need to drop the idea of getting multiple attacks, and focus on other advantages of wielding two weapons.

I disagree. Multiple attacks are the first thing you think of when you think of two-weapon fighting. You just have to make the shield bonus worth giving up that extra attack. Around +4 or +5 should do it, with maneuvers to push people around or block attack spells/breath weapons etc.

 

[Grimmjow]

i was hoping for domains not deities but w/e cant get everything you want in life.