Of Mooks, Plot Armor, and ttRPGs

OK. So reposting it:
Purist-for-system is a term that I learned from this essay. It describes an approach to RPGing.

The approach is exemplified by RPGs like RM, RQ, Champions/HERO, GURPS, C&S, perhaps Classic Traveller. I mention these systems because familiarity with them helps make sense of the approach.

RM, RQ and C&S are all FRPGs that try and cover the same general sort of thing as D&D, but they all differ from D&D in some fundamental ways. I'm not as familiar with C&S as the other two, and so will draw mostly on RM and RQ to outline the differences:

*They eschew classes as the core of PC build, in favour of skill-based progression (RQ has no classes at all; in RM and I think also in C&S, classes serve as skill-packages or skill-cost determiners);​
*They eschew hp-based combat in favour of hit location and crit systems, with active defence/parry broken out from armour protection, and armour acting as damage reduction;​
*They eschew Vancian casting in favour of some sort of points-based spell system.​

On top of these mechanical differences, the all emphasise "seriousness" in tone and setting (in contrast to some of the more "funhouse" aspects of, say, White Plume Mountain or Castle Amber or even Tomb of Horrors).

What's going on with these differences?

At their core, the resolution processes of these RPGs - that is, the methods used during play to work out what happens when a player declares that their PC does something - have two properties:

*They generate answers to the question "what happens next?" without the participants (players and GM) having to make decisions on the way through;​
*As the resolution process is worked through, it generates knowable fiction at every point.​

Here's a clear example of a RPG resolution process that doesn't meet the first criterion: in Burning Wheel, if a player fails a roll, the GM has to decide what happens next, having regard to (i) the task the PC was attempting and (ii) the player's stated intent for that task and (iii) the player-authored PC Belief that is at stake in the current fictional situation. It's metagame all the way down! RM, RQ and similar games eschew this.

Notice that D&D's core combat resolution engine, and core spellcasting rules, mostly satisfy this first criterion. This shows their very close connection to wargaming procedures. (Notice, also, that 4e's skill challenges don't - that's one reason they're controversial!)

But consider the second criterion. D&D's combat procedures fail this test (putting to one sie the more outre interpretations of them canvassed upthread by @Pedantic). When an attack roll is made, and resolved, and (if it hits) hp damage is applied to the target, we don't know what happened in the fiction. Was it a lucky attack that caused a small injury? Was it a mighty blow that was parried, but the parry shook up the parrier? Or something else? We can't know that just from the resolution procedure. Someone - typically the GM - would have to make it up!

Whereas RM and RQ answer these questions via the resolution procedure without anyone having to make anything up: we know whether the blow was landed skilfully or not, we know whether or not it was parried, or blocked by a shield; if an injury occurs, we know where it is and how severe it is.

In the case of spellcasting, the contrast with D&D is less clear but there's a general sense, in the purist-for-system ethos, that Vancian memorisation in it's D&D style is hard to take seriously, but a points-based system enables us to similarly envisage what is going on at the moment of casting: the spell user is calling on their inner energy (kind-of like Ged or Dr Strange) and shaping the magic to try and impose their will on it. It's not a coincidence that these games tend to require a roll for spell casting, rather than having it succeed automatically as it does in D&D.

This is the essence of purist-for-system RPGing. But this ethos tends to bleed from the resolution process to other parts of the game. For instance, because the resolution process tells us what is happening at each stage in a knowable way that doesn't require additional authorship, it is natural to think that the resolution process tells us what is possible in the fiction ("rules as physics"). This then has implications even when the procedures are not being used - eg when the GM is authoring the setting, or framing a scene/establishing a situation, they should do so having regard to what would be possible given the resolution mechanics. (Contrast D&D, which at least in its classic form that these games were reacting against cheerfully permitted all sorts of elements in the fiction that couldn't be explained in terms of the extant PC build and resolution rules.)

Furthermore, the differences I've described - more "realistic" combat, less reliable spell casting - make classic D&D dungeon-crawling less feasible as a play activity (because fighting is less feasible, and spells no longer serve the same player-side resource function that they do in classic D&D). At the same time, rich and robust skill systems encourage players to focus their activities elsewhere.

The things I've described in the previous two paragraphs, in turn, are what feeds into the sense of "seriousness" about the setting. And that iterates back into expectations about what sort of fiction the resolution system should generate, so the upshot tends to be a type of "groundedness" or even "grittiness".

To reiterate what I've posted a bit upthread, you can see the same purist-for-sytem ethos in AD&D players who change the game in certain key ways:

*Introducing a wound/vitality type system to make injury more realistic, and make it clearer - in the fiction - which "hits" are really just wearing a foe down vs which are the actual injury-causing blows;​
*Adjusting the falling damage rules to avoid the situation where a player knows their character can't die from a fall;​
*Adjusting the archery rules so that a single crossbow shot that is not dodged or deflected can be fatal, even if the PC has more than (depending on edition) 6, 8 or 10 hp;​
*Replacing Vancian memorisation with some sort of spell-point system, and/or adding in general spell failure/mis-cast rules.​

These changes (i) enable tighter connection between resolution processes and knowable fiction, and (ii) make classic and "funhouse" dungeon crawling less viable as a focus of play. They increase the sense of "seriousness", just like RM and RQ and C&S and so on.

I think it's harder to graft an effective skill system onto AD&D (apart from anything else it collides a bit with thief, ranger and bard class design) but it's not impossible to have at least a bit of a go at it, as the original OA shows.

Anyway, that's the longer version of an explanation of what I think is going on in purist-for-system RPGing, and how action resolution procedures are at its core, but generate effects and an ethos that ramifies into other parts of the game. (It also explains why I think that purist-for-system RPGing is not connected to "world simulation" in the sense of that phrase that @AbdulAlhazred is criticising. RM and RQ and C&S GMs don't pretend that they can model a whole world using game mechanics. Rather, they approach their GMing task, and the relationship between the fiction that they author and the mechanics of their RPGs, in accordance with the ethos that I've tried to describe.)
Thank you. That makes much more sense.
 

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It doesn't, of course. But the original question was whether he is biased or has animus against simulationist play. Perhaps he's changed since I stopped reading the Forge, but while I was there, the answer was emphatically 'yes'. I honestly don't blame people highly committed to that mode of play being angry and offended at him, because he said some grotesquely offensive things.
My own view is that people who want to practice a particular artform (for lack of a better word to describe an aesthetically-motivated activity) need to have the courage of their convictions.
 

My own view is that people who want to practice a particular artform (for lack of a better word to describe an aesthetically-motivated activity) need to have the courage of their convictions.

I'm assuming that I'm misreading this, because in the context of what you're responding to, this seems to suggest that if you're a proponent of one version of an artform its necessary to be very critical of other forms. That certainly doesn't seem to be a necessity in music.
 

I'm assuming that I'm misreading this, because in the context of what you're responding to, this seems to suggest that if you're a proponent of one version of an artform its necessary to be very critical of other forms. That certainly doesn't seem to be a necessity in music.
My view is that someone who is put off by the knowledge that others think what they're doing is misguided or shallow should have the courage of their convictions - eg either not care if its shallow, or make the case that it's not.

I would assume that many classical composers, and serious critics, would regard a lot of pop music as rather shallow in its musical character. That's their prerogative. If the pop musicians want to make their case, well that's on them to have the courage of their convictions.
 

I'm assuming that I'm misreading this, because in the context of what you're responding to, this seems to suggest that if you're a proponent of one version of an artform its necessary to be very critical of other forms. That certainly doesn't seem to be a necessity in music.
Though, there are people who DO believe that in music, I'm a big fan of punk music and plenty of people in that movement see being a proponent of punk music and condemning pop music as the same.

(I do not feel that way.)
 

My own view is that people who want to practice a particular artform (for lack of a better word to describe an aesthetically-motivated activity) need to have the courage of their convictions.
Who said they don't? We aren't talking about answering an argument here. I'm talking about vituperation and insult. I wouldn't be mentioning this if he'd been making rational arguments.

EDIT: In any case, I don't think Mr. Edward's character or personal opinions are relevant to the discussion, so I propose to let the matter lie.
 
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Anyway, that's the longer version of an explanation of what I think is going on in purist-for-system RPGing, and how action resolution procedures are at its core, but generate effects and an ethos that ramifies into other parts of the game. (It also explains why I think that purist-for-system RPGing is not connected to "world simulation" in the sense of that phrase that @AbdulAlhazred is criticising. RM and RQ and C&S GMs don't pretend that they can model a whole world using game mechanics. Rather, they approach their GMing task, and the relationship between the fiction that they author and the mechanics of their RPGs, in accordance with the ethos that I've tried to describe.)
Yes, but the ethos which PfS arose out of, at least to a degree, was an early form of narrativism! That is, an attempted narrativism of a sort. This theory DID actually require that there were rules which govern, as much as feasible, all aspects of the world. The theory goes something like this: Role Play in then-current, c1980 roughly, RPGs is often flawed. Characters are shallow and motivated only by fairly unrealistic and trivial motivations (IE a lust for gold pieces) or at most conform to simplistic and rather crude models like "lawful good".

This was hypothesized to be an outgrowth of the unrealistic and shallow nature of the milieu, which was largely blamed on the lack of realistic rules which would produce outcomes fairly close to reality. The hypothesis being that the lack of detail and cause-and-effect modeling simply lead to this weirdly distorted world full of bizarre characters (somehow, don't bother to critique any of this, it was nonsense). So, a system like RM was somehow sought which could be so hyperrealistic in at least the areas which touched on the interests of PCs (you can already start to see the problem here) that players would somehow just find that all the incentives would line up to produce some kind of much more fully-realized characters.

This was all huge load of hogwash of course. I Personally was more of the opinion that it was the milieu which needed depth and substance, and a constantly changing and highly authentic character. Thus the idea of the highly realistic weather system, for instance. It also extended to a vast scripted meta-plot in which it was envisaged that the characters would become significant actors, should they so choose and should fate smile on them. This too was utter rubbish!

I mean, starting in the early '90s I constructed such a campaign, using my existing campaign world that already had 15+ years of continuous play in it by then (so lots of places and details and characters, and lore). I came up with a whole elaborate meta-plot, including a whole bunch of mechanics that could model different things that could happen based on whatever actions the PCs took that would mess with its otherwise appointed course (bad guys taking over the Kingdom). So, it quickly became obvious that the whole idea of such a vast and unwieldy meta-plot was both unworkable and didn't actually matter at all to how the game played out in terms of players role-playing (duh!).

We did play a lot of that campaign, though in a more limited form (the players simply refused to get involved in playing out wars and battles and such, lol). It was fun, but it was still just a typical D&D campaign set in a fairly detailed setting, ala Greyhawk or whatever. 2e D&D did its incoherent "I'm a dungeon crawl game trying to be a story game" thing, etc. I had really fun players that did interesting things, and the characters were certainly pretty decent, by D&D standards. It certainly wasn't going to break new ground though!

So, I looked at 4e with some interest, given its obvious "I am a game first" orientation. Turns out complex characters with deeper stories and more significant interaction with the world ACTUALLY happened when we had much richer detail about the characters themselves, and easy ways to bring together mechanical stuff and the players motives and ideas about the characters. The orientation on challenges (what you want to accomplish, not how) and things like quests really works! Mooks are OK! I guess hit points are somewhat 'plot armor' too. Whatever, it works, and pretty soon I stopped prepping and started just asking the players which way things were going to go!
 

My view is that someone who is put off by the knowledge that others think what they're doing is misguided or shallow should have the courage of their convictions - eg either not care if its shallow, or make the case that it's not.

There's such a thing as "I think this is obnoxious but I lack the spoons to do the drag out fight to make my point why."

I would assume that many classical composers, and serious critics, would regard a lot of pop music as rather shallow in its musical character. That's their prerogative. If the pop musicians want to make their case, well that's on them to have the courage of their convictions.

And yet somehow rock, metal, country and hiphop artists in many cases manage to work together without doing that. Which ends up meaning that the classical musicians just do an even better job of coming off as elitist than they already carry around.
 

Though, there are people who DO believe that in music, I'm a big fan of punk music and plenty of people in that movement see being a proponent of punk music and condemning pop music as the same.

(I do not feel that way.)

And, as I've seen among metal fans, there are plenty of people willing to tell them to sit the hell down and stop being jerks.

Because that's the whole point; being that way about it is being a jerk. It elevates your particular tastes to a high form without, in many cases, making any argument how it is without first begging the question.
 

There's such a thing as "I think this is obnoxious but I lack the spoons to do the drag out fight to make my point why."



And yet somehow rock, metal, country and hiphop artists in many cases manage to work together without doing that. Which ends up meaning that the classical musicians just do an even better job of coming off as elitist than they already carry around.
Yet, you could now be accused of tarring them all with the same brush. I mean, there are NUMEROUS examples of classical musicians and groups, even symphony orchestras of great repute, playing with rock bands, for instance.
 

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