Off to War (always recruiting) OCC Year 2:

[HolyMan]

Not talking about the stunning fist I was refering to Ki Strike(magic). What if you swapped that to have the ability to cast 2 zero lvl spells spontaneously per day. We can figure what spells you know later - I like Stand for Aidan seems to fit.

You lose a potentialy helpful ability for something small but it gives you the prereq you would need and sets our path.

HM

 

[Myth and Legend]

HM don't get me wrong, i am not complaining I am simply considering low wealth to be one of the factors that determine campaign power levels.

Low wealth + low optimization = very low power levels. We don't have a single Tier 1 character apart from Lora and even she is very un-optimized (not a specialist Wizard, taking Milita at level 1 etc.)

Since we are talking mostly Core here, here is a run down:

Wizard - #1 IMO, once we get past level 5 and the Wizard can start Flying around, the class pretty much outshines everything else. When one gets to Time Stop, Wish, Gate and the likes the game ends.

Druid - supremely versatile and very hard to "screw up" by an unexperienced player. Has very good spells, and superb class abilities. The pet bear is awesome, and his Wild Shapes are better at fighting/grappling/tripping/bull rushing then an actual Fighter who takes the appropriate feats.

Cleric - versatile, with deadly spells later on, very good at melee (better then any actual "warrior" class) and once they get to Miracle and the likes it's bye bye. Especially bad with variants like Cloistered Cleric, Knowledge Deviotion, and with domains like Time, Planning etc.

And no a Mystic Theurge is quite bad when comapred to a pure Wizard or Cleric.
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Here we have Sorcerers and Psions. Very very good, the only thing they lack compared to the "big three" is versatility.

Battle Sorcerer is very bad and is never a good trade off, since it lowers your versatility to abysmal levels.
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Here we have Bards, Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Paladins

These three can be much better with additional sources for spells. In core they are sub par, except for a Diplomacy optimized Bard. Rogues are OK but too many things can be immune to Sneak Attack with Core Only itemry. At later levels with UMD they can get by so ling as they have wands and scrolls.

Barbarians are good at fighting with their Rage, although hindered by the lack of better things to take from sources like Complete Warrior. With non-core material, they can get north of 500 damage on a charge attack, which makes them deadly (at least to things that worry about physical attacks) In the SRD there are variants like Lion Totem Barbarian and Whirling Frenzy which are good.
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Fighter and Monk reside here, at the very bottom. Why? Well up until level 4 or so, Fighters are actually very good. But this is the class that lacks any class features whatsoever. They run out of good feats to take very, very quickly, especially with core only material. The Druid's pet bear or tiger is better at fighting then them at mid levels already. The Druid's Wild Shape as well. Heck, a Wizard with Transformation alone can handle them, and if non-core spells like Bite of the Weretiger and Wriathstrike are allowed, fighters become completely useless. The other disadvantage they have is that they can do pretty much nothing outside of combat, while the other classes can.

Monks are good only as a dip. They are a class that relies on melee but get medium BAB. They are squishy and their AC won't help them versus lots of things mid-high CR creatures have. Their SR comes in to play later then that of a Cleric (who has it via spell) and everything else they get is easily outdone even with core magic.

HM's games are more about role playing and less about being the best of the best. Will a group of 2 Wizads, 2 Clerics and 2 Druids rule? Yes. Could we have taken on the entire Treylor foce with such a group? Yes. Will it be fun? Probably not. It would probably prompt HM to send nasty enemies our way. Or lose his passion for the game, which is worse.

I'm happy with the way the game is right now. TOB classes will be right below Sorcerer and Psion, which will mean they will be better then anything we have so far, unless i stick with straight Wizard for Lora. It's up to HM to decide though

 

[Myth and Legend]

BTW HM, is that a real "Arthur answer" lol, Lora would know, but I don't want to assume. It sure seems real.

 

[Dragonwriter]

I know you're rather big on the Tier system, Myth, but they are also subjective (one of the points the originator makes in the post). It does vary from one group to another, depending on the level of optimization.
(And one little quibble: the Psion is not Core. It's in the SRD due to the Expanded Psionics Handbook being Open Game Content.)

We also have access to PH2 now... I know the four classes within aren't considered great, but they each have good points. Dragon Shaman and Duskblade are potent (as I recall, Tier 4 and 3, respectively, but having played a DS for some time, they should be in Tier 3 due to usefulness), while Beguiler is a full caster with access to 9th-level spells (largely enchantment and illusion, but those can be quite potent, if used in a clever manner; Tier 2-3 if memory serves).

As to the "Aidan advancement" issue, FWIW, there is a ritual for kobolds allowing you to spend some money, lose 1 HP permanently and gain a 1st-level spell as an SLA 1/day. I think there was also a web enhancement with another ritual to increase Sorcerer caster level by 1. Of course, these were kobold-only, but it could provide a basis with creating a ritual to imbue Aidan with a little magic, without sacrificing levels and BAB (since, as you've pointed out, Theroc, he already has a lot of trouble with his attacks). And perhaps the bonus spells would give him another use/day of the SLA.

On a related note: Swordsage is not a good tank class. d8 HD, Medium BAB, light armor only... Sure, you get a bunch of maneuvers, but you have the worst of the three recovery mechanics.

 

[Theroc]

As to the "Aidan advancement" issue, FWIW, there is a ritual for kobolds allowing you to spend some money, lose 1 HP permanently and gain a 1st-level spell as an SLA 1/day. I think there was also a web enhancement with another ritual to increase Sorcerer caster level by 1. Of course, these were kobold-only, but it could provide a basis with creating a ritual to imbue Aidan with a little magic, without sacrificing levels and BAB (since, as you've pointed out, Theroc, he already has a lot of trouble with his attacks). And perhaps the bonus spells would give him another use/day of the SLA.

Well, a SLA won't qualify Aidan for Dragon Disciple anyhow, it has to be 'spontaneous casting'... as a basis it could work, but Aidan's HP already stinks IMO.

On a related note: Swordsage is not a good tank class. d8 HD, Medium BAB, light armor only... Sure, you get a bunch of maneuvers, but you have the worst of the three recovery mechanics.

I'd say a Swordsage with the same key switch as Aidan's monk would likely be BETTER as a tank than Aidan as a monk. I am aware it's not an ideal tank. ~shrug~
I'm just kinda lost as to how to proceed now. I find it funny people always say that planning out a characters details in advance is bad for roleplaying, but now I don't even know where to go so I'm happy with his numbers. lol.

 

[HolyMan]

BTW HM, is that a real "Arthur answer" lol, Lora would know, but I don't want to assume. It sure seems real.

So I did well then? LOL I wondered but yes that is a real Arthur answer, he may believe people get what they deserve but there is one person in the whole world that is the exception.

Thanks for the tier thing but I don;t follow crunch stuff a character is as good as the game he is in. I could take a group of 2 wizards, 2 clerics. and 2 druids and give them quiet the workout. LOL It the play that's the thing your crunch should be secondary always as I will never throw in something to make a character worthless in his role. i.e non crit monsters, no traps, no undead, etc. You all make the characters and my job is to mold the game around them.

I
As to the "Aidan advancement" issue, FWIW, there is a ritual for kobolds allowing you to spend some money, lose 1 HP permanently and gain a 1st-level spell as an SLA 1/day. I think there was also a web enhancement with another ritual to increase Sorcerer caster level by 1. Of course, these were kobold-only, but it could provide a basis with creating a ritual to imbue Aidan with a little magic, without sacrificing levels and BAB (since, as you've pointed out, Theroc, he already has a lot of trouble with his attacks). And perhaps the bonus spells would give him another use/day of the SLA.

I like the ritual ideal for getting Aidan's "dragon blood" to surface may use it. Thanks alot.

I'm just kinda lost as to how to proceed now. I find it funny people always say that planning out a characters details in advance is bad for roleplaying, but now I don't even know where to go so I'm happy with his numbers. lol.

Which is how it should be, a character can't be thought out to far in advance. Especially in a campaign and you not sure what would be useful later on. You plan one way but the DM plans another and you get stuck with worthless abilites/spells or even items if the game doesn't start at 1st lvl. Best case is to mold as you go if something you want has pre req. go ahead and start that a little, but never assume that in the end you will be this or that.

In this game you all have the advantage as I am not one to make stuff up to far ahead of time. Although ghostcat chose sleep as a spell he got unlucky as the Treylor were always going to be elves from day one. Roman style elves, but as to why they were invading I didn't have an answer to that till DW made Jareth and then I had a few things planned do to that. Now with the addition of FtF's character I have a twist and... well you will all see. Just hope you are having as much fun as your DM.

HM

 

[HolyMan]

Nice post in the IC FtF I think everyone should figure out their intentions and post what they want to do for their character.

It is two days till XP so I will be waiting to post something big till then. But I think maybe we can split the groups in two and have it balance for lvls. Not nessacary trust me I will roll with whatever, but for now it may be the 2nd lvls going across the river now and the higher lvls catching up after.

So in the next couple days give me a post up of who wishes to join Malaroc, and then I will see where we are for the others.

HM

 

[Theroc]

I like the ritual ideal for getting Aidan's "dragon blood" to surface may use it. Thanks alot.

I don't think Aidan would consent to any ritual mojo, he'd likely be afraid he'd lose his stuff again... rofl, I wouldn't mind though.

Which is how it should be, a character can't be thought out to far in advance. Especially in a campaign and you not sure what would be useful later on. You plan one way but the DM plans another and you get stuck with worthless abilites/spells or even items if the game doesn't start at 1st lvl. Best case is to mold as you go if something you want has pre req. go ahead and start that a little, but never assume that in the end you will be this or that.

Well, thing is, I thought it was funny because since I DIDN'T plan him out too much when I made him, now he seems subpar and ineffective. I don't know what to do to avoid that, since I can't figure out whether it's his class bringing him down, my crappy rolls, or something else entirely.

In this game you all have the advantage as I am not one to make stuff up to far ahead of time. Although ghostcat chose sleep as a spell he got unlucky as the Treylor were always going to be elves from day one. Roman style elves, but as to why they were invading I didn't have an answer to that till DW made Jareth and then I had a few things planned do to that. Now with the addition of FtF's character I have a twist and... well you will all see. Just hope you are having as much fun as your DM.

HM

I'm definitely enjoying the RP, I really like the dynamic Aidan and Lora had. I'm not enjoying being a sleepy punching bag in combat though. (Hasn't 'won' a fight yet. lol ) Not trying to be whiny... I just dunno how to go about fixing it.

 

[Myth and Legend]

Thanks for the tier thing but I don;t follow crunch stuff a character is as good as the game he is in. I could take a group of 2 wizards, 2 clerics. and 2 druids and give them quiet the workout. LOL It the play that's the thing your crunch should be secondary always as I will never throw in something to make a character worthless in his role. i.e non crit monsters, no traps, no undead, etc. You all make the characters and my job is to mold the game around them.

HM a group of such 20 level characters will break any campaign unless the DM wants to have rocks fall on them.

Or it is rather more precise to say, they will breeze trough things a group of Fighters, Monks and Paladins will have no chance of beating.

With non-core material i can make this aforementioned party beat anything CR20-30 you can throw at them unless it's another group of similarly powered and optimized characters. And i'm not talking about insane optimization that is abusing RAW, even RAI optimization will make them a bunch of godlings pretty much.

But i digress, and I do agree that it's the DM's job to challange everyone equally. That really becomes tougher when there is a mix of characters and players at different skill levels. Challenging the monk and fighter while standing next to a druid and cleric will be tough indeed (If those druids and clerics know what they are doing of course).

 

[ghostcat]

So in the next couple days give me a post up of who wishes to join Malaroc, and then I will see where we are for the others.

HM

HM. I'm OK with whatever you come up with for Trinham. My latest post gives you a way of letting Trinham join Malaroc. But if you want to pass, then he will stick around for the trial but NOT the subsequent execution.