Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

5ekyu · Feb 8, 2019

S'mon said:
You can't expect the writer of Sage Advice to actually read the PHB! However Stinking Cloud doesn't actually prevent Actions, it says "You spend your Action Retching & Reeling", so bonus could still apply I think.

Yup, by the rules as written and this ruling alone, yes. Thatsxwhy I griped at the answer.

Notice the division however between stinking cloud and the Warlock Shadows invocation.

For the Warlock, the ruling is that "until you move or take an action or a reaction" include bonus actions because "Bonus actions are actions."

But for Stinking Cloud (and presumably all those "only action is Dash" fear type effects) "On a failed save, the creature spends its action that turn retching and reeling."

Bah... at my table, "Any effect that forces a character to spend its zction in a certain way - such as Dash or retching - counts as "anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.""

Although, one could argue by RAW Stinking cloud "deprives you of your ability to take actions" since you cannot Dash, Attack, Disengage etc etc and the "deprives" does not say "anything that deprives you of your ability to take ALL actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."

But its cleaner as a house rule for me.

Li Shenron · Feb 8, 2019

S'mon said:
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash? Yes. The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you.

What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate? Does the druid simply leave beast form? The druid leaves beast form. As usual, any leftover damage then applies to the druid’s normal hit points. If the leftover damage leaves the druid with 0 hit points, the druid is disintegrated.

This seems to be ignoring the plain wording of the Disintegrate spell in order to be nice to the PCs.

They also changed the wording of Disintegrate in the errata, however. I think it is now actually consistent with this Sage Advice.

Arial Black · Feb 8, 2019

Li Shenron said:
I have always been aware of the fact that those 3 are defined as "Actions" for the sake of making it clear what is their cost. In a most basic turn (i.e. without considering bonus actions or Action Surge or similar) you simply have to give up your main activity (attacking or casting) if you want to move double distance, avoid OA, or get a defensive bonus.

Had they designed Dash to immediately grant an extra move, you'd have to use it immediately, or maybe it would have required a bunch more boring wordy explanations, because "move" isn't an action per se in 5e. Instead with the current design, everything that is already explained about moving is still valid (including splitting up the movement distance), you just increase the maximum distance for this turn.

What is good about this design, is that players can choose to Dash/Disengage/Dodge at any time during their turn, if they still have an Action to use. So the PC might have already done something else, and then realize they need some extra movement/defense or they may incur in an OA.

A different design option would have been to have some "fight defensively" or "move carefully" condition that applies to the whole turn. Or they could have more strongely defined a move as a "move action". These were kind of things used in 3ed, and they worked fine in the context of that edition's philosophy, but Crawford makes it clear that 5e has a different philosophy and such extra rules artifacts would have gotten in the way of it.

The problem is that his own rules contradict what he just said about those rules (as soon as you 'take the Action' you ARE doing that thing), AND he's saying that this is the reason he's ruling this way.

An observer notes that some of the actions happen as you take them, and some do not. Claiming that Shield Master MUST be this way because 'the rules are written so that taking the action is the same thing as doing it' is absurd, because of all the rules HE wrote which DON'T work that way!

Li Shenron · Feb 8, 2019

Arial Black said:
That's the point though: there is no 'general rule' that actions are indivisible!

That's true. Also, there is no 'general rule' that actions are divisible. So pick one and use it.

Arial Black said:
I have Extra Attack and the Shield Master feat. It's my turn. I announce that I am 'taking the Attack action' and execute an attack against an adjacent orc, killing it.

Have I 'taken the Attack action' or not?

If I have, then I have generated a bonus action shield shove, and can now take it at any time from now until the end of my turn, either before or after my extra attack.

If I have not, then I'll take the Cast a Spell action to cast ensnaring strike, because I have not used my action yet (you just said so!) and that orc died for free.

Which is it?

Neither.

I would say that you are currently taking the action, in the middle of its completion, so you can neither use a bonus action or another action.

You can however "interact with an object", communicate, or use any part of your movement, because all these 3 are explicitly allowed to be done during an action / freely / between multiple attacks of the same action, respectively.

Arial Black said:
The problem is that his own rules contradict what he just said about those rules (as soon as you 'take the Action' you ARE doing that thing), AND he's saying that this is the reason he's ruling this way.

An observer notes that some of the actions happen as you take them, and some do not. Claiming that Shield Master MUST be this way because 'the rules are written so that taking the action is the same thing as doing it' is absurd, because of all the rules HE wrote which DON'T work that way!

I think this is not a real problem, but rather a fabricated one.

But if you care so much about the RAW, I would note that you can still say that "Dash" as an action happens (and is completed) when you take it, and this still doesn't mean in any way that you have to move 30ft immediately, because the action itself explicitly says those 30ft are added to your overall movement distance in your turn, it doesn't say that Dash is equivalent to moving 30ft.

The same thing happens for Disengage, Dodge, Help and Ready. You can still go with the RAW and say their action is taken and completed, but the benefits occur later (for some of those even past the end of your turn, and into next round!) because that's what their specific text says.

5ekyu · Feb 8, 2019

Arial Black said:
The problem is that his own rules contradict what he just said about those rules (as soon as you 'take the Action' you ARE doing that thing), AND he's saying that this is the reason he's ruling this way.

An observer notes that some of the actions happen as you take them, and some do not. Claiming that Shield Master MUST be this way because 'the rules are written so that taking the action is the same thing as doing it' is absurd, because of all the rules HE wrote which DON'T work that way!

Yes but...

"With this [Attack] action, you make one melee or ranged attack."

"When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn."

One of those rules specifically calls out doing something while the other calls out gaining something. Dash specifically did not say "you move an additional distance..." when you take the sction.

For SM, what is required is "If you take the Attack action on your turn..." and its clearly stated that you make an attack with the Attack action.

Asgorath · Feb 8, 2019

Oofta said:
I also have other issues with the ruling. It means I couldn't do the following between attacks: misty step as a bonus action between attacks; bonus action healing word an ally; use an action surge to take an action to interact with an object; stab someone with my primary weapon then with my off-hand weapon before attacking with my primary again, etc.

That's just not as fun and slows down the flow of the game for me and my group, so I will continue to ignore it. If other people like the structure that strict parsing of the rules gives them, more power to them.

FWIW, as Jeremy discussed in this week's Sage Advice video, neither Misty Step nor Healing Word have any kind of timing restrictions in their text and thus you can do them at any point on your turn (including the examples you give above). Shield Master, Two-Weapon Fighting etc do have triggers, and thus the trigger has to resolve before you get the bonus action, according to JC's interpretation of RAW. Like many other people, I'm still slightly confused about how Extra Attack interacts with "taking the Attack action" for Shield Master, because I still think it's reasonable to be able to attack-slam-attack since you've already committed to the Attack action after the first attack. However, I also do agree with what he said in the video about not wanting Shield Master to just grant permanent advantage, as that seems massively overpowered (and that's how it felt when I was playing it that way on my SnB Paladin).

I think there's a reasonable interpretation that if you made one of your 2 attacks but then wanted to Action Surge to "Use an Object" then there's just not enough time in the round for you to make a second attack. That is, if the object is complex enough that it takes an action to use, then you have to spend several seconds interacting with it.

Having said all of that, I think JC's best advice is to "follow your bliss" and if you don't like these rules, then just change them for your table.

tabris47 · Feb 9, 2019

FWIW, as Jeremy discussed in this week's Sage Advice video, neither Misty Step nor Healing Word have any kind of timing restrictions in their text and thus you can do them at any point on your turn (including the examples you give above).

@Asgorath From rules you can't interrupt your action with other things, unless specified otherwise. So for example you can cast Misty Step as bonus action before the attack action or after the attack action (no timing restrictions), but not beetween attacks (because if you do it you interrupt your Attack action, very few things are allowed during attacks such as using your movement).

Yunru · Feb 9, 2019

deryn said:
From rules you can't interrupt your action with other things, unless specified otherwise.

Cite?

Arial Black · Feb 9, 2019

deryn said:
@Asgorath From rules you can't interrupt your action with other things, unless specified otherwise.

If it's 'from the rules', could you give us the page number and provide a quote?

Arial Black · Feb 9, 2019

Li Shenron said:
That's true. Also, there is no 'general rule' that actions are divisible. So pick one and use it.

But there IS a general rule that you can take your bonus action whenever you like, as soon as you actually have a bonus action. That, combined with complete silence on whether or not actions are divisible, leaves us only with 'take the bonus action when you like' rule.

Neither.

Not a valid answer.

It cannot be that you have not 'taken the Attack action' so you haven't generated the bonus action shield shove, but you have 'taken the Attack action' so you can't take a different action.

It's a game rule, not an unresolved quantum probability. We are looking in the box! We can see if the cat is dead or alive! It is one or the other!

But if you care so much about the RAW, I would note that you can still say that "Dash" as an action happens (and is completed) when you take it, and this still doesn't mean in any way that you have to move 30ft immediately, because the action itself explicitly says those 30ft are added to your overall movement distance in your turn, it doesn't say that Dash is equivalent to moving 30ft.

The same thing happens for Disengage, Dodge, Help and Ready. You can still go with the RAW and say their action is taken and completed, but the benefits occur later (for some of those even past the end of your turn, and into next round!) because that's what their specific text says.

'Taking the Attack action' involves, according to PHB p192: "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." Therefore, as soon as you say you are 'taking the Attack action' and have resolved that attack it is certain that you have, in fact, 'taken the Attack action' at this point. You have generated that bonus action shield shove.

With Extra Attack, you can attack twice. You are not required to attack twice.

If I have Extra Attack, and attack once, but choose not to make a second attack, have I not 'taken the Attack action' as described in the rules? Am I barred from doing anything else ever that requires an action or bonus action because I am still in the middle of my Attack action? Do I have to attack a nearby innocent child because I've killed all the baddies before I am allowed to misty step over the chasm to get to the BBEG?

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

5ekyu

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Li Shenron

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Arial Black

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Li Shenron

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5ekyu

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Asgorath

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tabris47

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Arial Black

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